Catching Up with the Community: Client Relationships, Digital Forms, & NDAs

Oops! They did it again. Alex and Cat took a summer hiatus. And then they came up with a new episode series!

After sharing two very big announcements, Alex and Cat answer your anonymously-submitted questions. From NDAs to sticky subcontracting situations to client scenarios gone wrong, they share their thoughts on how to tackle these situations, and how to run your creative business just a little bit better -- all while leaving room for their favorite thing: nuance.

Listen in - you never know what tidbit will help you with your next creative entrepreneur dilemma.

event calligraphy, client relationships, subcontracting, event contracts, business tips, branding, NDAs, marketing, networking, workshops, digital forms, dress codes, guest interactions, learn engraving

Engraving 101: https://go.eventraptor.com/summit/hsh-hobby-summit-2609/alexhirsch

Alex's Supplies List: https://www.patreon.com/SignedByAlex/posts/all-engraving-in-134158928?collection=1539620

Transcript

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Alex (00:07)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Keeping Up with the Calligraphers. This is Alex and

Cat (00:13)
Cat of Cat Lauren Calligraphy. Why didn't you announce your business

Alex (00:16)
And

Cat (00:16)
name, Alex?

Alex (00:18)
I paused on the name because the first announcement I'm gonna make is actually by the time this comes out, everyone will have known. or maybe you don't because you're probably not stalking my page. but I'm changing my name from Signs of Our Lives to Signed by Alex. and it is a great pivot, and I'm excited to share that. It's been 10 years of Signs of Our Lives.

and I'm very excited for this new chapter. It feels way more me and way more aligned with what I do and way more generic.

Cat (00:48)
But

somehow it feels so much better, I feel like. I'm curious.

Alex (00:53)
And we still have the sign

part, so if you start typing my name, it'll come up. Or if you type Alex. And now people will know my name and not just my brand name, which I'm very much looking forward to that, because some people still have me on their phone as signs for our lives. So

Cat (01:05)
I am excited for you. I feel like you've been wanting to do this for a really long time and I'm excited I feel like there were so many things that we you like went back to and then when you told me you wanted to switch to signed by alex I was like, wait, no, that is absolutely correct. Like this

Alex (01:18)
Yeah.

Cat (01:19)
is the only option.

Alex (01:20)
Yeah. It's like simple but it makes sense. And that's all that matters.

Cat (01:23)
It makes sense.

It'll k the search at the beginning will still hopefully be there. Like it'll still pop up. it's perfect.

Alex (01:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. so that's been such a journey. There's a lot of back end things you need to do for when you change your name, as I'm sure Cat knows because she's done a few rebrands at this point.

Cat (01:43)
Only one name change.

Alex (01:44)
Okay, only one only one name change. But so yeah, that's my news and that's why I paused on fully introducing myself. So now it's Alex of signed by Alex. Yay!

Cat (01:54)
Yay!

Alex (01:56)
Okay, Cat also has some news.

Go ahead.

Cat (01:58)
Yeah,

it's a summer of fucking secrets over here. Sorry. I moved like out of California. I live in Texas now. I am in Dallas, Texas. And yeah, I've known for over a year.

Alex (02:13)
Mm-hmm.

Cat (02:14)
did did nothing with that or my time. I think it was just living in denial for a year.

now I'm here and I'm just fighting for my life.

Alex (02:22)
that was a wild, huge move and you're only a few weeks in and

Cat (02:28)
Excellent.

Alex (02:28)
now you have to introduce yourself every episode with like a howdy or something. I'm gonna wait for that ha to happen actually.

Cat (02:35)
I don't think that'll happen, but I was already I feel like y'all

Alex (02:37)
No, we're gonna see how long it takes for you to be like

Cat (02:41)
was already part of my vocabulary, like slightly. More so maybe through text, actually. I don't feel like I say it out loud very often, but yeah. I grew up in like a very

the area of San Diego that I grew up in is like very similar to Texas in some ways where there's a lot of like Western tie-in. There's like the big rodeo presence. so I don't know, it doesn't feel super different, but then it does at the same time. So I'm interested to see how the pivot or not pivot, but the transition of business.

From Southern California, LA, San Diego, Orange County to Dallas goes. I do travel quite a bit, so I'm hoping it will be fine.

Alex (03:26)
in just a few weeks, you've been back to LA, you've been to Colorado. I feel like you have an international trip coming up.

Cat (03:34)
Mm-hmm. I will be back. I have a handful of clients that I know for sure I have to go back for. I've booked probably like two or three events back home. So in this in my head, when I was like being very naive of it all, I was like, I'm not like leaving one market. I'm expanding markets. So now I'm just adding Dallas. And now I'm like, okay, that was really dumb.

Alex (03:58)
It's very cat coded in that you are like,

Cat (04:01)
Yeah.

Alex (04:02)
I can do it all and it'll be fine and I won't crash out at all. And no worries.

Cat (04:07)
No, I've had many a crash out since I've been

here. So yeah, if anybody has any

Alex (04:12)
Which is very normal.

Cat (04:13)
advice on that, please let in my DMs. I may be crashing out and I might not be ready to accept. I actually maybe don't DM me because I'm actually really not on social media at all right now because I did take the summer off and also I literally just can't right now. Like my brain.

is scrambled trying to figure out all the things I need to do. so if you DM me I probably won't see it if we're being honest because I have deactivated Instagram for a little bit. So that's what's happening.

Alex (04:40)
Yeah. But we

are here for you to support you and we're looking forward to the next chapter for you.

Cat (04:47)
Same. I

Alex (04:48)
Ha.

Cat (04:48)
feel like I'm just between books right now, so I need to get in a book to get into the next chapter.

But yeah.

Alex (04:55)
okay, so like a million years ago, we asked everyone to send in their questions. because we feel like sometimes there is not a there are some subjects that are not worth a whole episode. And so we kind of took a bunch of questions from you that felt were

Going to be beneficial for everyone, and we had some opinions on and that we felt we could weigh in on. So these are some of the burning questions that y'all gave us, some scenarios, and we're gonna weigh in. So yeah, let us know if

Cat (05:24)
Ready?

Alex (05:25)
you disagree with anything, I guess.

Cat (05:27)
Yeah.

The first one. So this was sent in from somebody. It says there was a miscommunication with the event planner that signed my contract and the client who didn't like the type of work I came prepared to do. She said it needed to change because she was the one playing paying. Sorry. She, which sounds like the client versus the event planner. she wanted work that we had no materials for. We did our thing at the end, but she was not happy. So

Calligrapher was hired by the planner. Planner, it sounds like there was maybe some level of disconnect with the client. Client didn't actually like what this calligrapher or artist, I guess it could have been, because it is anonymous, was hired to do and wanted something completely different that they weren't prepped for. And yeah, client wasn't happy. Thoughts, feelings, opinions, go.

Alex (06:14)
Well, my first thought when I read this was like, okay, so that was definitely on the planner and or the client for whatever communication breakdown for not reading something, for not looking at a website before hiring someone or their Instagram or whatever. and that was my first reaction. Was like, it would never be one of our artists. And then my second reaction was like, Okay, things like this happen and maybe it's a good

indication that there might be a gap in the artist's processes. So whether that's not providing an example ahead of time or asking about the material or sending different lettering styles or different artistic styles, whatever it might be. Like maybe it's a portrait artist and they wanted a fashion illustrator. so that was my second thing was maybe there's some gaps

And that's when you have to kind of look at what you're doing, how you're communicating and each touch point that you have with your clients and making sure every step of the way from hiring to the event and even afterwards that they know what to expect. and that includes what to expect of what you're gonna do on site

Cat (07:19)
I think too, maybe a process hindsight's 2020, but it is I forget what it's called, but when you have like the event planner is the one that signed your contract, but that they were not the person that paid. I wanna say it's like a third-party payee, possibly. Paige is gonna kill me for not knowing this.

Alex (07:39)
No, I was like, I have no idea.

Cat (07:40)
yeah, so they're

I mean, legally is kind of like the trickle down of like who is your contract actually with and then like who is actually the client. I mean, based on your contract, technically your event planner in this circumstance would have been your client, to my understanding. Again, I'm not a lawyer, so do not take this as law advice.

but if you know that that person that is signing the contract is not the person that's paying and isn't ultimately the person that is like,

The event is for, or the person that's like on the receiving end of the service, I guess. I've been in this situation before, but like now that I have learned from that, I'm always checking in and being like, hey, the person that is receiv like that

Alex (08:21)
Yeah.

Cat (08:22)
is the beneficiary of these services that is gonna receiving the product that's done, like.

That is the person I would like to put on this contract since they are the one paying. I want to make sure all of those align. And if they don't align, I personally have a s, I think it's an addendum that you're adding to your contract that's essentially like safeguarding for a scenario like this where there's a different person paying, but the contract is with your client, which is the event planner here, which all of that said, doesn't

fix a problem on site, when you're already there and there's now just like friction. So it sounds like this person did the best thing that they could do. the only other thing

Alex (09:02)
And you can also like bring other supplies, yeah.

Cat (09:05)
yeah, I the that's the only other thing I was gonna say is like I try to travel with my Mary Poppins bag that has like everything in it. it has multiple foilers, multiple engravers, it has paint pens, it has paint

But also, I mean, they could have like, I just wanted like embroidery, you know, or something like that, where like you could still plan for everything and it's still just like, well, I literally don't do that. So I don't know what

Alex (09:27)
Yeah.

Cat (09:28)
to tell you. but yeah, which I'm sure most of you are doing, but just trying to prepare for as much as possible that is like reasonable to carry with you. and then tightening up your process after the fact. or if you're new and you're hearing this.

it does a little research into what process you may want to add to your communication and or your contract.

Alex (09:50)
Yeah. Well, and like every time we you or I have had a shitty situation, I feel it falls in two different camps. One is that it's a learning experience and we

Cat (10:03)
Yeah.

Alex (10:03)
go, and now we need to adjust and now we know better for next time, right? Like that's why we started this podcast, 'cause we had a lot of those situations where we're like, Yep, could have done way better. Hopefully we can share some of our knowledge with other artists that

So they can learn from us. And then on the other hand, sometimes it's just a fucking shitty client who is gonna complain no matter what because they

Cat (10:25)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (10:25)
want a refund. Like there are people like that who are just kinda shitty and they want their money back and they just

Cat (10:32)
Or they're just like

really inflexible, like they just have this idea

Alex (10:35)
Yeah.

Cat (10:35)
of exactly what they wanted in their head, or they like saw something on Chat GPT and they were like you're like, This is literally AI.

Alex (10:40)
That that doesn't exist. Yeah.

Cat (10:46)
But like some people just like can't be pleased. Some people just really can't be flexible and deviate from a plan and you just have to

Alex (10:54)
And that's a reality.

Cat (10:55)
like separate that from like you and what that means about you and your business because it doesn't necessarily mean anything. So you just kinda gotta take that one with a grain of salt.

Alex (11:06)
Okay, let's get to our next question. so the next one is about a group calligraphy event. So it sounds like there was multi multiple artists.

Cat (11:13)
Okay.

Alex (11:14)
this artist was subcontracted for it. So they weren't the lead artist. and so they weren't sharing their business info. They were just all under the business of the person hiring them. So

Cat (11:24)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (11:25)
one artist was the lead, the rest were working under them.

it says days later we were required to sign an NDA, there was no social media that we could post and no acknowledgement of our businesses. It felt like a bait and switch, and I would have charged double or declined if this situation was disclosed up front.

Cat, your take.

Cat (11:44)
I have a lot. But

Alex (11:45)
Ha

Cat (11:46)
I wanna like preface my take with like this is all the information that we have. we don't know the location, we don't know the client, we don't know truly what the NDA said and what it was for, or like anything like that. So there's so any of those factors, one little switch could totally change my opinion on the scenario. so I'm just

Reacting based off of what I have. I don't there's kind of a lot here. I feel like I don't know the subcontracting thing is a whole like hot it's a hot debate in our industry. Yeah.

Alex (12:19)
It's a nuanced

Cat (12:22)
And I don't know,

I think the thing that's standing there's two things that are standing out to me here. The first one is like, we don't I'm not clear based on the information that we were given if this NDA was from the lead artist just to the subcontractors, or if everybody from this event was placed under an NDA because of the nature of the client, or just like whatever. I think those are two separate things. if it's

Just like a general NDA that perhaps the lead artist didn't know at the time that they subcontracted you, which happens. Like I've shown up and they were like, actually, we need you to sign an NDA for an event that I was just working by myself. I I didn't know ahead of time, and it just is what it is, at that point. so if that's the case, I

Would say that this person could probably have a little more flexibility with the lead artist. They may not know, they may not have known ahead of time to give you guys the heads up that it was gonna be an NDA, and they may be doing the best they can to communicate that to you. If the NDA is from the lead artist to the

Alex (13:22)
That's a little weird.

Cat (13:23)
subcontracting artist, again, I don't have the context of like what the NDA says or anything else, like that one is a little bit different.

But even if that's the case, even if this NDS coming from a lead artist to subcontracting, I I'm stuck on the charging double. Like this just feels like it wasn't a great working relationship to begin with. I don't am I allowed to say that? Should say that?

Alex (13:48)
No,

I feel like that's so valid because well A, even if it was my client and I was signing an NDA,

I wouldn't be charging them double to sign the NDA. And then especially if I'm being

Cat (14:01)
Right. I perhaps could be charging

more, but I'm not charging double.

Alex (14:07)
Double. Yeah.

Cat (14:09)
Should I be charging double?

Alex (14:12)
I

fuck if I know. well.

Cat (14:14)
But I yeah.

But also like

I don't know. I don't I haven't worked with somebody where if they like I was subcontracting for them and they all of a sudden were like NDA like no posting that I would feel sideways about it. maybe it's because I have a personal relationship with these people. I tend to like them. I have I don't think I've worked for anybody that I was like questionable, like I'm just gonna take the job and it is what it is.

so I can't necessarily speak from that, but it just sounds like maybe this wasn't a good fit for you, like to work with this person.

Alex (14:43)
So I forgot to mention

that NDA means non-disclosure agreement and it typically means that you're not supposed to share well legally, you're not you're legally

Cat (14:51)
Some something. Yeah.

Alex (14:53)
you're not when you sign it, you're not supposed to share anything about whatever they're making you say you're not supposed to share anything about. and it happens for definitely a lot of like celebrity and influencer events because they're like, Yeah, this is like none of your business, don't post it online or

Like this is a very high-end thing. So it makes sense to have them in general.

Cat (15:12)
Yeah.

Alex (15:12)
it would for sure be weird to receive that from another artist. but it wouldn't be weird to receive it from another client. So I do agree on that.

Cat (15:19)
Yeah.

I have, I don't think it's an NDA necessarily, but I do have a clause in my subcontractor agreements that is a non-disclosure, but it's not about posting. It's about like my processes because you're seeing an internal piece of my business. So it's that you can't like replicate any of the things that I'm sending you

like you can't just like take that and make it yours. so it's more so like that. It's not I yeah.

Alex (15:48)
Yeah, it's more like I can send you a C cease and dissist for copying than Yeah.

Cat (15:52)
Yeah, it's like please just like don't be a piece of shit. Take my stuff when I'm

trusting you to be part of my business. Like but

Alex (15:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

I also think like this is interesting because I'm curious if it's like the NDA or if they were asked to white like they were definitely asked to white label, which means you're showing up to event and you're not represent representing your brand.

Cat (16:13)
Your own business, yeah.

Alex (16:15)
and sometimes people have a white label fee that they tack onto their invoice and whatnot. I personally have done that so many times for like corporate events, they don't want you promoting your brand.

at a corporate event that's for like their VIP clients. it's just weird, you know? Like th there's a time and a place to be promoting your brand and not every event is a place to do that.

Cat (16:37)
Yeah.

Alex (16:38)
I've gotten to the point where sometimes I don't even put out my business cards and I don't even really have like a big thing about my brand on my sign. I'm just like have a little QR code. Like if you want to share this, if you want to follow me, great. But like I'm not it's not about me.

The event is about the client, so

Cat (16:54)
Yeah.

Alex (16:55)
it sometimes it just fucking makes sense.

Cat (16:57)
Yeah, and I yeah. I agree.

Alex (17:00)
I th yeah, I think we got it all.

Cat (17:02)
So again, like we only have so much context here. We don't have the full context to really like dissect this whole situation, but yeah, that one kind of put me in my fields a little bit.

Alex (17:13)
It's a lot. It's a lot. I think subcontracting it can get icky. I think NDAs and white labeling can be a very gray area. And so, you know, it's it's important to talk about this stuff and to share opinions because not everyone is gonna feel and think the same way about it.

Cat (17:30)
Also, sorry, the other thing I was gonna say I get wanting to be able to like post your events and stuff like that, especially if you're potentially newer and you're trying to build a portfolio and all of those things, but discretion also is a very strong but quiet marketing tool.

I'm no longer in LA. but I do a lot of events, obviously in Los Angeles. And I do work a lot of NDA events. And whether it's a celebrity client, whether it's just a planner that works with maybe a lot of like high net worth individuals or a lot of the big luxury brands where you're doing a lot more like behind the scenes stuff, they want referrals for people who can be discreet.

Who don't need to make everything about them. So yes, it's important in your business to be able to market it 100%. But I think we're overlooking where discretion can also be a really effective marketing tool. it just is tends to be more word of mouth. but people are looking at that kind of stuff as well. So I think there is maybe not equal amount, but there is a lot of value in being able to.

blend in with your surroundings and also stand out, but also having the discernment to know when the situation calls for one over the other. and I think that is a soft skill that a lot of business owners need to develop, if I'm being honest.

Alex (18:57)
For a minute I thought you were going down like the Barbie movie monologue

Cat (19:01)
Yeah.

Alex (19:02)
from America Fair where she was like, You have to be this, but you also have to be this and you have to be this. Cause you were like, you have to show that you're exciting and stand out, but also don't stand out.

Cat (19:13)
Just like there's a time and a place for everything, and you have to

Alex (19:16)
Yeah.

Cat (19:16)
build the muscle that helps you discern which is which.

Alex (19:21)
all right, next question.

Cat (19:23)
Okay. Says I've noticed in my area that the same few people get jobs and then they subcontract when they're not available within an equally smaller group. So it feels very monopolistic. Is how you say that word? Monopolistic. How to

Alex (19:37)
Callista.

Cat (19:38)
how do you handle subcontracting when the main point of contact is not on site versus just referring out the job? I feel like those two separate questions,

Alex (19:48)
there's a lot of factors with subcontracting. As always, it's fucking nuanced. We're gonna say this till the day we die. It's nuanced. It's nuanced, it's nuanced. Every situation is different. So there's quite a lot of things that are kinda come up here.

Cat (20:01)
we did a

whole episode, if not two, on subcontracting. So if you're just hearing this clip and you're like, wait, I wanna hear more, good news. There is so much more

Alex (20:11)
Good news.

Cat (20:12)
that we already went over. But sorry, proceed.

Alex (20:15)
No, I was gonna say, so one of the things is you and I hire each other a lot. And

Cat (20:20)
Hmm.

Alex (20:20)
you were the first person I texted for this event that I potentially have coming up because you are someone that I know you're making a face, but you're gonna be in fucking Italy, so fuck off. So

Cat (20:29)
Yeah.

Alex (20:30)
but it's because we know we work well together and we are we trust each other's work, we trust each other's style of communication on site, and so there's a lot to be said for

There are sometimes, yeah, we create little subgroups within the calligraphy community and part of that is because we know people that are like trusted people and we want to make sure that we're doing best by our clients.

Cat (20:53)
Yeah. I agree.

Alex (20:54)
So I know for me personally, I will hire the same f five to ten people because I don't ten is a lot, actually. I would say five. I know just all these people. I don't

Cat (21:03)
I was gonna say when we did Comic Con last year trying to

find a team of eight ones.

Alex (21:09)
No, literally someone I was I reposted Comic Con recently and someone was like, How did you find eight people? So, well, I did bring in one from LA. That was for sure. but thankfully it was from creating relationships around the area and just having trusted people. So I think that's a huge part of it. And on the same note with the relationships, it's client relationships. I literally started taking screenshots of this. Cat knows that

Of clients asking me to subcontract under my name, but another artist is working like for me under my name or whatever, and then I'm paying with them. Because it's so fucking hard sometimes to get in these client systems because there's so many forms. It takes a bunch of onboarding. They have accounting departments that you need seven forms of identification for. Like I'm actually not sure.

Cat (21:55)
Yeah, and then setting up the

ACH to even try to pay you, like it's a whole thing.

Alex (22:01)
Yeah, they have to like literally call you and you have to answer your phone. I mean to confirm your bank account details. Which is always that's always the step that like gets in my way 'cause I'm like, I have to answer the phone. but yeah, so I think that's a huge thing too. It's like what's what's gonna be helpful for the client? 'Cause sometimes they go, Do you want a referral or do you want me to subcontract? And sometimes the client's like, Please just subcontract. so I think that's a

That's another factor.

Cat (22:24)
Yeah, I would agree. And again, it might be different in different areas. but I yeah, I've had a lot of clients do the same thing. I more so corporate clients than like private clients, I guess, or like private events, yeah, or like personal events, stuff

Alex (22:36)
Yeah, like for a wedding they're not gonna be like Yeah.

Cat (22:40)
like that. Yeah. but even then, like sometimes I'll refer and they're just like, We've already been communicating with you, or like I have a group of planners that I've worked with.

many a time and they're like, Yeah, do you mind just saying that over? we've already done this. It's so much easier. So that is part of it. I do it it is hard because I do feel like sometimes

I've been on the receiving end where it's just like a random person being like, Hey, can you go work this event for me? Because they want me to hire a group of people across the entirety of America. And

Alex (23:12)
Yeah, that's happened too.

Cat (23:14)
yeah, that one. I guess that goes more into the question of like how to handle subcontracting when the main point of contact is not on site. I think for sure getting the

A on site point of contact is step one. So if it's even it's like a large brand they're hiring across the entire like United States, like I might have a point of contact that I've been emailing, but I'm like, but who am I talking to on site? Who am I finding? Like who's the manager? what am I doing? do they know I'm coming? any of those things. So that's usually how.

I start with that. I'll ask the main point of contact or not on site, the best way to communicate with them, if it's through text or a phone call. and then I'll also just say I d I don't know that this is maybe for everybody, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I have now just said, if I cannot get a hold of you and a decision has to be made in 15 minutes, I'm going to do the best that I can with the information I have and I will communicate to you the decision I've made. And

That part of that is just from trial and error, part of that is just from like navigating a lot of these events on site and stuff like that. So that may not be the right answer if you're maybe newer and you're in your first couple events, it could be your answer. it just kind of depends. But I think getting together with your point of contact and just having some type of like, if I cannot get a hold of you and something has to be done in a certain amount of time, what do you want me to do about it? Like

goes a long way. and also shows them that you're prepared and you can handle it and do all of those things, but

Alex (24:43)
I think being proactive is really important. I think exactly what you said. You're being proactive, you're communicating ahead of time, even if it's not your event. As a subcontractor, sometimes you do have to be the one proactive with asking questions about the event because the person who's hiring you might have a lot going on. They might

not realize that they didn't communicate it. And so I think just, you know, continuing to give people the benefit of the doubt, obviously if it becomes a pattern, maybe not a good fit. and then also just thinking about, you know, if it is the same few people getting jobs, then, you know, can you reach out to any of those people and make friends and, you know, hire them for an event?

Cat (25:20)
Make friends.

Make friends is the key there. the same way that like listen, we love a cold pitch, but it doesn't have a great success rate. And you just gotta like know that going in and have the resilience. But it's not just sending them a DM and being like, hey, if you ever need somebody in this area, like I would love to work from you, like don't

Alex (25:39)
We don't remember.

Cat (25:40)
not do it, but like

Alex (25:42)
But we don't remember.

Cat (25:42)
I don't know that that's always gonna make

that person think like

Alex (25:45)
Yeah.

Cat (25:45)
That's not just something that like sticks out in your brain. It's just a not a very inorganic interaction and it's not it doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies, you know? I think relationship building is such a lost art. And the reason that we have been subcontracting together or like how I've been working with a lot of people that I've met through you is because we've built that relationship over time and I've been able to see

you know, in my own personal interactions with them, like how they communicate and how they make me feel, you know, on the receiving end of communication. Like I've been following them, so I've seen their work. I have a sense of like their processes. So even it is not often that we tend to hire outside of our group. And that's not because we don't want to work with other people and stuff like that. It's just

Comforting to know that our clients are gonna get taken care of the way that we know that they should be taken care of. Like the choice is to benefit the client, not to just send someone that we're not as familiar with.

Alex (26:43)
I mean it's just so nice to pull up to an event when you are kind of just working with your friends and like they know the drill. You know the drill. You don't even have to you're like, Hey, are you available? Great. Okay, we're gonna be foiling. Sometimes we don't even know what we're doing. We're just like, You'll text me

Cat (26:53)
Yeah. Bring everything.

Alex (26:58)
you'll text me two hours of really bad. What are we doing?

Cat (27:02)
Or

be

like, I still don't know. We'll decide when we get there. So just like bring everything,

Alex (27:04)
Yeah.

Cat (27:05)
I guess.

Alex (27:06)
TV. So yeah, I think that's part of it too. But yeah, it I think coming from it from the perspective of you know, people are living their bubble, no one's out to get you, no one's purposefully not hiring you, is more likely the case than not, right? And so, you know, yeah, make connections. Have those relationships with people. if you if you wanna kinda get the in right? So

There's that.

Cat (27:29)
I think you also,

depending on where you're at, this isn't necessarily again, if this advice doesn't suit you, don't take it. But I think if you're genuinely interested in trying to work with someone or build a relationship with someone, it might be that you need to take a step back. Like perhaps they're looking for an assistant and you offer to assist them at an event and you're not

An artist at the event, and that means you're not getting the same hourly rate that you were, but it gives you FaceTime to work with them and that you get to have that interaction with them. Like I think being open and being flexible and valuing the relationship over the work, I guess. I don't know.

Alex (28:10)
There's been a couple artists that have worked events with us and as event assistants, like not on the

Cat (28:15)
Yeah.

Alex (28:15)
artist part of the table. and I have been able to determine based off of how they interact with people and how they take initiative and how they stay organized, like that I would trust them to work an event with me.

as an artist Do you know what mean? So I think, yeah, that's that's perfect example. Okay, this next question is totally for you because it says, what types of questions do you get more descriptive guidance for event dress codes? When I ask, I'm usually just told business casual or cocktail with no reference to the theme or colors. What's your take?

Cat (28:54)
Pretty

straightforward. I use I usually literally ask like, is there a theme, a color, or a dress code I can keep in mind for this event? Feel

Alex (29:03)
Ha ha ha.

Cat (29:03)
free to send over any design decks or mood boards you may have. so I do. I ask for all of those things because I am desperate to wear anything fun. But yeah, I think I I did this a lot a couple years ago, and that's where I started.

getting to break free from just black business casual. and so that's kind of now like become part of my business. And that's really cool. So a lot of people now are just sending me dress codes and I'm like, great. but where is it? And like what time?

Alex (29:33)
Ha ha

Cat (29:34)
So if that's something that you are interested in, you want to like be able to expand more and stuff like that, yeah. I think just like expand on your questions. So not just dress code.

You can even say, like, I love being an immersive part of the evening. can you send over any decor inspo or things that that I can keep in mind? I think there's just a lot of creative ways that you can ask and get more information. you can also ask for dress code, but also just looking at a design deck that they may send over and you can just pull that yourself. I'm not necessarily expecting my answers to be like, feel free to wear green. And like.

It's whatever theme. they're like the guests are gonna be in cocktail attire. this is like these are the colors or like this is the design. and then yeah.

Alex (30:20)
I remember well, I was gonna say two things. One, the one time that I literally matched the umbrella.

Cat (30:25)
Yes.

Alex (30:26)
were the same exact pattern and colors as the umbrella at one of the events and I was like, well I'll stand over here.

Cat (30:32)
Yeah.

Alex (30:35)
that was funny. But that was going off of one of those reference sheets. and then I also remember like I remember Hannah one time, who's frequently on our podcast for hot takes, Hannah Holt, she like dressed in it was like a beer festival and dressed in one of like things

Cat (30:51)
that was so

good.

Alex (30:53)
And then I feel like there was another calligrapher who dressed in like pirate attire. And I think Whitney dressed in a pilot uniform. Like people

Cat (31:01)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (31:02)
can get immersive with some of these things, but I would say like ninety-five percent of the events, they're just gonna be mostly business casual or cocktail attire. And you're gonna wear event black.

Cat (31:13)
still

like jazz that up if you want to, like, you know, you can Yeah. A whole

Alex (31:17)
We had a whole episode on this. With Sylvia.

So if you want to listen to that episode, we had a whole episode about dressing yourself and how you can create your own personal style

Cat (31:27)
I think you had really good advice too before we started recording.

Alex (31:30)
so I sometimes when people will sometimes answer one out of five questions in your email, which we love that, but then we have to keep asking the same questions again. Sometimes I will literally like even for an event this weekend, I said, Hey, I'm gonna wear like browns and creams to match with the brand aesthetic. Let me know if that works, or if I should instead dress in event black. And they were like, No, that's perfect. We love that. So

I think giving that sort of like concrete like this is what I'm planning to wear, or what I'm envisioning of wearing for your thing, or alternatively I can stick to event black, like giving that option I think is also good too, 'cause sometimes, yeah, people don't fucking know and you need to like tell them. So that was

Cat (32:11)
Yeah. I could also

see this being a regional thing because for a very long time, the expectation literally was just like, no, why would you wear literally anything other than black business casual? Like, but

Alex (32:23)
Mm-hmm.

Cat (32:25)
I think as events continue to evolve and they're becoming more immersive and they're coming more experiential, and dress cords are becoming more elaborate for guests, and that the aesthetic continues to evolve,

We work in an area that tends to be more on the forefront of some of those events. So maybe if you're in other areas where some of these things are still catching on or like these types of events are really still like emerging and you're more on the front end of that, that may just also come with time as events evolve in your area. so it may be like really abstract for you to ask for that. And they're like, why would you wear anything else? We're all wearing.

Alex (33:02)
Yeah.

Cat (33:03)
Plain black.

Yeah.

Alex (33:06)
No, it's actually

so funny. I like feel so weird wearing black to any of the Orange County events, like in Newport and Laguna and stuff. Cause

Cat (33:15)
It feels very stuffy.

Alex (33:17)
it's so coastal over there. So I'm always wearing like creams.

Cat (33:19)
Yeah.

Alex (33:20)
It feels weird to wear black. So what

Cat (33:22)
Yes, I agree.

Alex (33:23)
yeah, when you said regional, I was like, yes, a hundred percent. Like now I have cream in my wardrobe because some of my events you can wear.

Cat (33:31)
I've been so beachy

and coastal.

Alex (33:33)
Black in San Diego, you can wear black in LA, but Orange County, it feels weird for some fucking reason.

Cat (33:41)
All

right. This is kind of a hot take, I guess. Digital forms are not better than pen and paper forms.

Alex (33:48)
I mean I agree because I'm so like, my god, you're gonna make me be on a fucking iPad through half my event. No. And this is

Cat (33:54)
Like I'm not an iPad kid.

Alex (33:56)
not an iPad yet. We are millennial to our core. And I will say digital forms were amazing for an 8,000 person

Cat (34:03)
But we don't run it now.

Alex (34:04)
event. For what?

Cat (34:05)
But we weren't running them.

Alex (34:06)
No, we weren't running them. I would say yeah, I would say it's very different. If you have someone who's doing it, like I've done it at Lululemon, where they've done a little digital thing, they're collecting people's information or at like a conference, they're doing digital forms and it sends to me. Totally fine. Most of the time, again, ninety per plus percent events, I agree. Digital forms are not it. So, cat, what do you think?

Cat (34:28)
I agree. I don't find digital forms better necessarily. I've been trialing it at a lot of different events lately and I've been kind of refining it. I found a system that I do think works, I think there's a time and a place for

them, but it takes away a lot of visual cues for people.

and then just like depending on your audience, I could see it potentially working at a conference, I can see it working possibly at like an influencer event or something like that. I think the key thing is if it's a drop and go thing where the goal of your service is the personalized item. but if the goal of the service is the interaction and that like experiential moment.

I do think the digital forms take away from that because then we're missing the cues of like, where am I in the cue of who's next? Like we're missing out. I

Alex (35:22)
Yeah, we've lost the plot.

Cat (35:23)
think the hardest thing for me, to be honest with you, is that when I did them at weddings or some of the other things,

People, when I have the paper forms and they're all sitting in front of me, like there's a pile that they're putting them into. People can see, like, she's got a lot to work on. They don't tend to come back and bother me, to come ask. But with the digital forms, people had no clue how many orders I had in front of them or anything like that. And so I was getting a lot more people that were like, I'm like checking to see if mine's done. I'm like, we literally fill out the form like five minutes ago.

So I think it misses a lot of those cues.

Alex (35:54)
How dare you not be done?

Cat (35:56)
And it just depends too on like the audience. weddings are a lot more of a widespread of age, I guess. Like there's a larger age range of your guests. and a lot of people actually didn't have their phones on them. It was like, my it's in my purse over there. I don't have my phone on me to like, if it was like scan a QR code, fill out kind of vibe. or like

some of the older people just like could not figure out the digital thing. And now I'm taking extra time away to like work on that. So

Alex (36:29)
We've only had

six years to be practicing scanning a QR code. How dare you?

Cat (36:35)
And well

that and then like there's also unless you're doing like it's printing out like a ticket system or something like that, there's not anything physical to now like put the item out for people to find. so if they're not doing their name or there's multiple people with the same initials, which happens at a wedding, now people are like grabbing the wrong stuff. so I just didn't find it as useful as I wanted it to.

that's not to say the system can't improve, but the things that it took, it made it less personal, which I didn't like either. it felt very much like people just came, scanned the QR cord, and then they're walking away and typing on their phone. Now they're putting in like 12 orders. And I'm like, I don't, I'm they're not there for me to be like, hey, John, you just put in 15 luggage tags, like it's one per person.

But now I can't ask him like, are you putting that in for someone that's standing with you? I

Alex (37:23)
Yeah, yeah.

Cat (37:25)
just found that people tend to like scan and walk away. And then they really missed out on the whole point of the whole experience. So again, if the if it's a conference or something like that where the point is that they're just like gonna get this personalized thing and then they're gonna go to a session and then like come back or something like that, or an influencer event where there's a bunch of stuff, I could see it working there.

But yeah, I sorry, that was like way more than this question asked for, but I don't think a digital

form is better than a paper and pen.

Alex (37:53)
Yeah, we like a paper in bed and obviously. Hello.

Cat (37:57)
If I'm writing something for you, you're writing something for me.

Alex (38:00)
Yet.

Cat (38:00)
The pros and cons of like the handwriting not being legible didn't were not outweighed for me. The amount of times I run into that and truly can't decipher it was not anywhere near equivalent.

Alex (38:09)
People can't type for shit

also, so same same.

Cat (38:12)
Yeah, and they don't read a digital form they don't they don't read a paper form, but they definitely don't read a digital form.

Alex (38:19)
Can confirm as someone who recently fully avoided filling out a digital form and was like, Can you just print this for me? Like what do you mean you I have to fill out a twenty question digital form? You're gonna kill me. So yeah, that just showed my age, I guess. any who's Sylby, next question.

Cat (38:35)
Any

of this will be. Okay. this one is how to handle guests who come back from multiple items even after telling them you're only allowed X amount per guest. Sorry, I'm also gonna take my jacket off because I'm like very sweaty.

Alex (38:48)
little strip tease that we got.

Hope you guys are watching video.

Cat (38:51)
Okay, good.

Alex (38:53)
yeah, so Cat and I I'm giggling because we

Cat (38:56)
Handle this very differently.

Alex (38:57)
handle this differently. Kat's a little bit more by the book on this one. I'm a little bit flexi. It sometimes also just depends on the event, the number of items, all of that stuff. So

Cat (39:07)
What the item is.

Alex (39:08)
and what the event is, right? Like if it's a corporate event and you have like 500 items and it's slow and whatever, I'm like, yeah, come back. We'll get you another one.

And then sometimes there's other events where you're like, I literally only have 50 items for 50 guests and we could not order more because this shit is expensive. and you just say, like, I'm sorry, it's one item per guest. but I usually say if I don't, if they want to keep coming back, either I'll say come back at X time, which is usually like fifteen to thirty minutes before the end time. And I'll

Cat (39:39)
Yeah.

Alex (39:39)
be like, check back later. Most of the time they don't check back. But if they do check back,

and you don't want them to receive a second item, you can always blame it on the event planner. And you just be my God, I'm so sorry they told me I couldn't. So this is where you have like a little white lie situation. You just go, I'm so sorry. Or like we're out. Or like the event planner is looking at you. I can't. Sorry. I'll

Cat (40:01)
Yeah.

Alex (40:02)
get fired. Do you want me to lose my job? I have my God, I like want to recite the like I have a family.

okay, I don't know what's wrong with me today.

apparently movie monologues are on my brain. but yeah, cats a little bit I feel like you're a little bit more you'll cut people off. You'll just say no.

Cat (40:21)
Here's the problem is it's never just one person. It's one person and then they go tell other people that they got another one. And now I have to do like 50 extra. And

Alex (40:32)
Yeah.

Cat (40:32)
so I can't say yes to one. I can mean I mean I can, but I'm not going to. And then like

Alex (40:36)
Yeah. Okay, so

Cat (40:38)
no to everybody else. So like

It it I feel like they always ask when we're slam too, and it's like the first time that you're getting a break, and I'm like, Bro, like no, because you're gonna come back and get twenty of Like just let me breathe,

Alex (40:52)
Yeah. I try to do like a little like I can do one for you, but like don't tell anyone. Like I'll make it like our little s I'll

Cat (40:59)
Yeah huh?

Alex (41:00)
be like I'll be like, don't tell any like I'll just be very much the whole situation, when people want more than one, like it's a very hush hush. I'm like, okay, so now we're buddies and sometimes I like you, sometimes I don't like you. And if I don't like you, we're not buddies. But if I do like you, then like, yeah, I'm gonna yeah, I'll pass you another one. Just don't fucking tell anyone else. This is between us. And they're always like, Yeah.

Cat (41:18)
Yeah. I

will, but yeah, I feel like the context of the ask matters.

Alex (41:25)
It does.

Absolutely. Because if

they're just expecting it and demanding it, then you're like, Well now it's definitely a no.

Cat (41:31)
Or yeah, when they come up to you and they're like, Well, I'm so and so and I'm like, and I still don't care

Alex (41:37)
So nice to meet you. Okay.

Cat (41:39)
Like, do you want me to

go get so and so? And I'm like, Sure.

Alex (41:42)
Ha ha ha

Cat (41:43)
By all means.

Alex (41:44)
Yeah, your audacity level is it's up there. And I love it. And that's why we're friends.

Cat (41:48)
Well, so is theirs and I match the energy

that I'm given.

But sometimes they'll catch me and I'm in a good mood and I'll be like, you know what? For you and you alone. One night only.

Alex (41:57)
One night only you get nice

Cat (41:58)
Make sure the luggage tag.

Alex (41:59)
Alright, I think yeah, I feel we pretty much determined how to handle that. Yeah. Yeah.

Cat (42:04)
Yeah. All right.

Last one. I can't give any input on this, so I'm happy to ask you. This person is interested in doing workshops, but they don't know how to get clients. I have never done. I have taken many of your workshops, but I have not hosted my own. So I have no input on this.

Alex (42:22)
Yeah, so I will say workshops are different a different marketing thing. So there's certain things where you have to market differently depending on what you're doing, right? If you have a product-based business, you're likely on e-commerce, you gotta do that stuff. Sometimes you're doing in-store, you're working wholesale, all that stuff. So marketing looks different for whatever you are offering. for workshops, they're typically if you're doing it locally, I highly recommend you chat with people.

you look at cafes or breweries or whatever in your area maybe a stationery store where they are potentially already doing this sort of thing and they might already have a process for emailing people that are interested in just classes. Like I know I'm signed up for a

bunch of things in San Diego that I get emails for all the dang time. Can I go? Most of the time, no, but like I'm always keeping my eyes open for I know that this particular business hosts workshops and therefore I will always be looking to see if like maybe I'm interested in one. So that's I would say one thing. Like if it's local, connect with the local businesses. If you are looking to partner with another business, they probably have some sort of marketing thing of their own where they can help you.

another thing would be collaborating. Like maybe it's a workshop where you can like do a flower arrangement and a calligraphy workshop. maybe in the beginning you make something very small, like a bud vase and there's three things you get to choose. I don't know. I don't fucking know. But like, you know, figure it out where there's maybe some sort of collaboration. So basically rely on other people who probably already have things in place or who you can market to the same group of people.

if you're doing it virtually, that is very different and that requires a lot of things that I don't necessarily know about, other than just like posting a lot on social media, having different graphics, again, collaborating with other people, seeing if they can share it, offering a free ticket, asking, you know, for a free ticket in exchange, can you promote this? Whatever. I don't know. but there's lots of different tools depending on what you are offering. And then if you're looking to like do

Something big and virtual type of workshop that I can't really talk to you about because I haven't done that sort of scale. I

Cat (44:30)
Yeah.

Alex (44:30)
haven't really scaled workshops, I would say. I would say mostly just like little ones.

Cat (44:35)
Yeah. I

think the like through line in in like this whole episode, but like definitely with this is build relationships. But also for I think workshops specifically is like get a really clear picture of like who's attending this. Like are you teaching calligraphy to like the general public or are you wanting to teach it more like a more advanced thing that's to like

Alex (44:53)
No.

Cat (44:54)
people that already know calligraphy? is that who is in your social media audience if you're posting there? If

Those people aren't there. I'm so not a fan of like, what is the client avatar or anything like that? Mostly because I don't understand it literally at all. Just like does not compute in my brain. But like, truly, if you're just trying to find the girly pops that want to do a workshop, almost like a paint and sip kind of night, but like as calligraphy, where are those girly pops? Like, where are they shopping somewhere? Are they getting coffee somewhere?

Who are they already following? Like what other businesses do they already like and support? and that's where you try to partner and build those relationships and do those things. So I feel like you can't market it if you don't know like truly who is like what butt you're trying to get in that seat. And then just general marketing tactic, like just repeating your offer over and over and over and over and over and over again until you're beyond sick of it because

Two things. One, someone maybe didn't see it the first seventeen times you did it, but the eighteenth they did. And consequently, like sometimes people just need to hear the same message seventeen different ways. Lord knows my husband, I could say one thing ten times. But when his best friend says it, he's like, novel information. Has have never heard of this concept ever before. Like

Alex (46:12)
So why

are they all why? Same.

Cat (46:15)
Ha ha.

Alex (46:15)
Because same. I'm like, I'm sorry, I told you about that book or that podcast or that thing seven years ago. What do you mean?

Cat (46:21)
Yeah.

Alex (46:21)
Haven't been at dinner.

Cat (46:21)
And vice versa, probably me as well.

But I digress. Sometimes your life circumstances do not allow you to hear the message at the time that you're in and you need to hear it the seventeenth time. So you

Alex (46:34)
Mm-hmm.

Cat (46:34)
just like gotta keep putting yourself out there and making relationships and yeah. Do it work.

Alex (46:43)
Yeah. Build relationships. I mean,

we we like focus on your local community. It's hard out there to build community. Fucking believe us. we know we've been there. We've both moved and Cat is in the middle.

Cat (46:56)
I'm building a new one that's going terrible.

Alex (46:59)
Okay, you've been there for five seconds.

I wanna hear I'm gonna

my gosh. I have to follow up

Cat (47:03)
That's an option.

Alex (47:04)
with you after this weekend and you'll be like, my god, everyone is so nice. They have all these friends and connections now. I love you.

Cat (47:11)
Probably not. Cause that's just not who I am as a person. Everyone will be very nice.

I d I don't make fast friends.

Alex (47:18)
No, but I think that's like there is no such thing as fast friends. I think you can truly connect with someone. There's been many times where I'm like, I need to be friends with that person. But you still have to build the relationship. There's still the time it takes. Like I think there's like I don't know, like fifty hours or some statistic that it takes to like become

a certain level

Cat (47:39)
Friend.

Alex (47:40)
of fret yeah, and you have to it's like dating, like you have to keep doing it and following up and be interested and da da da. So yeah, it's fucking hard.

Cat (47:48)
Put in the reps. So the through

lines are put in the reps, build the relationships, and do your fucking art.

Alex (47:57)
It's so a rock star.

anyways, thanks so much for listening. we had two well, I feel yeah, two big announcements. We answered some questions.

Cat (48:07)
And gave more information

Alex (48:07)
We actually

Cat (48:08)
than you asked for.

Alex (48:09)
so much more information. And we found a common thread with all the questions, which I think is impressive in and of itself for us to do that. So

Cat (48:17)
For a lot of these questions, I feel like we did cover a lot of this in other episodes.

you can just like go search them and like listen to them.

Alex (48:27)
I think sometimes it's okay to relisten to episodes. Even if you're like, I totally

Cat (48:31)
Yes.

Alex (48:31)
know this. You might pick something up. Go re-listen.

Cat (48:34)
Yeah. That's

Alex (48:36)
And on that note.

All right, love you guys. Thank you so much for keeping up. What?

Cat (48:37)
Alex. Wait, wait, wait. Where can they find you?

Alex (48:43)
Well, it'll be at signedbyalex.co on Instagram.

Cat (48:48)
That'll be your Instagram.

Alex (48:49)
Yeah.

Cat (48:49)
Okay. And then you can find me. I'm at Cat Lauren Calligraphy. That's cat with a C. You can find us at keeping up with the Caligs. please, if you loved it, rate us. Five stars. Leave

Alex (49:00)
yeah, rate us. Five. Five seven.

Cat (49:04)
us a comment on YouTube or Spotify or wherever you're listening.

Alex (49:11)
Yeah, just I loved it. That's hot.

Cat (49:11)
if you like this and you want us

to do another one, also DM us and let us know, or yeah, DM us and let us know because we did do these anonymous, so that way people could be unhinged if they wanted to or feel safe to say whatever they wanted to say or ask whatever they wanted to ask. So if you liked this, DM us and let us know that you like the anonymous QA and then we'll put up another question box.

Alex (49:35)
Yeah. And if you didn't then hope you enjoyed this information and we'll try something new.

Cat (49:40)
Okay, thanks. Love you. Bye.