Hot Take: Reframe Your Jealousy, with Sylvia Wong of Via Calligraphy

If you’ve ever thought, “why not me?” this episode is for you. Alex of Signs of our Lives, Hannah of TallyMark Studio, and special guest Syl of Via Calligraphy discuss the concept of using that FOMO you have as a growth tool in your creative business.

Hannah and Syl share how “The Artist’s Way” shifted their perspectives about jealousy, and how engaging in creative exploration has lead to some *unexpected* discoveries to say the least.

Listen in for some actionable things you can do to fill the gaps between where you are and where you want to be, in a way that aligns with you, your creativity, and your business.

References:

• The Psychology of Your 20s podcast
• The Artist’s Way book / workbook 
• A Creative Act by Rick Rubin
• Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert

Sylvia of Via Calligraphy:

• Syl's Website
• Syl's IG
• SomedayArtClub IG
• Someday Art Club / LuxuryLettering101

Transcript

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Alex Hirsch (00:10)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Keeping Up With The Calligraphers. In today's episode we are doing a hot takes with our usual Hannah Holt of Tally Mark calligraphy. hi. And we have a special guest Sylvia again which we're so excited to have you back. And funny story like I only half told Sylvia about like what we're even talking about today. I was just like...

Hannah Holt (00:20)
Hi Hi

Sylvia (00:25)
I'm back

Hannah Holt (00:33)
I love it so much.

Sylvia (00:34)
No pressure

Alex Hirsch (00:35)
Here's this thing

that we're doing. Also, like, I kind of want to promote blah blah blah. And she was like, great. I'll be there.

Sylvia (00:40)
You know

what said? was like, I'm just down to clown. So whatever we're going to talk about.

Hannah Holt (00:45)
Here for the plot, that's it.

Alex Hirsch (00:47)
I love it. Just to give everyone context, it's like December 2025 while we're recording. If you haven't listened to a Hot Takes episode before, this is a fun mini series that we're doing on the Keeping Up Pod. The goal is to just start conversations, bring different perspectives to the table, do it in a loving way. And as always, there's no one way to live your life or run your business. We're just here to chat about thoughts, things that are happening in the zeitgeist.

You know? And so today I want to introduce our topic. I won't bury the lead any longer. ⁓ Yeah, so I was listening to a different podcast and I'm going to shout it out. It's called The Psychology of Your 20s and it's like neuroscience I love listening. Alex here, I love. Also, I don't think I introduced myself. This is Alex of Signs of our Lives It's called ⁓ The Psychology of Your 20s and it's basically like.

Hannah Holt (01:20)
Jump right in.

Alex Hirsch (01:38)
a neuroscience like little thing they talk about like, or I guess neuropsychology. And they had someone on that had mentioned something about jealousy. And they said, you know what, like we're, we all talk about comparison and competition and community and all that stuff. And they basically said, you can use your jealousy that you're feeling the FOMO that you're feeling, which

myself I can say I feel it FOMO a lot as like a motivator as like a tool for yourself and I kind of wanted to bring that to the forefront and Hannah kind of mentioned this when we were chatting about she's like yeah this is like the perfect time to be talking about this because it's the end of the year people are gonna be posting their highlights you're gonna be sitting here like my god why not me blah blah and then Hannah had also mentioned something about

The Artist's Way, which I know is a book that Sylvia had done a little book club about. And so yeah, I just kind of wanted to bring that perspective to light. I think it's really important, yeah, to share. And I want to, I have my own thoughts about it, but I feel like I want to start with you guys first. Hannah, I feel like you had a reaction immediately when I said that to you. So I'd love to start with you.

Hannah Holt (02:46)
Yeah, because I think about this a lot. I

think about jealousy and FOMO a lot, particularly because I read The Artist's Way and there's a whole section about this kind of thing. And so I think that you have like a similar kind of like feeling around it. So The Artist's Way for those who are not aware is a creative kind of workbook. The intention is to kind of go through it across 12 weeks, each chapter is a week. It's got exercises and different things that you can do to kind of reflect on.

Alex Hirsch (03:02)
yeah, thank you.

Hannah Holt (03:13)
who you are as a person, as a creative, how to kind of unblock your creativity. It was really life-changing for me ⁓ and opened up a lot of blocks in my brain. Didn't realize things that I did have blocked in my brain were there. And it just really opened up and made me kind of woo-woo about creativity stuff, which is not typically who I am as a person, but around this, I'm just kind of weird about it. Anyway, so in the book, it talks about

how jealousy is a mask for fear, which I just love this verbiage around it. It's using your jealousy as a way, as like a indicator of things that you might be afraid of. So saying that the things that you're jealous of is actually the things that you're afraid to tackle or take on or do in your life. And using that as an indicator of like,

wait, I'm jealous about this is something I need to be doing. This is something I need to be going after, something I need to be doing. The author uses the example of how she has no jealousy over poets and novelists. She's like, I don't have any jealous. I think all of them are great. They're doing such wonderful work. Everything is amazing. She goes, when it comes to women playwrights, I am the biggest critic. I am so critical. I am jealous. I am over the top because that is what I want to be doing. That is what I'm afraid to go after. It's what I'm afraid.

to work on and get better at it because I want it and I want to get after it. So I like that kind of framework of like, it's a little convicting and like annoying. I don't want to be afraid of this. Like I don't want to confront my fears and like, I don't want to be told that I'm afraid of something or that I'm, you know, jealous because somebody has something that I've been trying to work at. But I think it's like a really good way and indicator to kind of be like.

Okay, I need to put my things aside. This is something I want to work after. This is something that I want. And it's not about them. Like, obviously, like any sort of jealousy is never about the other person. It's always about like, what's going on inside.

Alex Hirsch (05:03)
Okay, so this is gonna turn into a little bit of a therapy session, but I love it. Okay, so I would love your take, like if it's similar to Hannah, if you have more to expand on, because I know, and like I only briefly kind of saw that you were doing something on Instagram with the artist way, so also tell us about that.

Hannah Holt (05:04)
feeling.

Sylvia (05:20)
Yeah, think, yeah, I also read that about jealousy. And I think the most prominent reframing of jealousy in my mind, talk about like therapy, is that if you feel that sense of that jealousy, that tinge of tightness in your chest, that like, envy that you feel, know, especially when you're scrolling and you're like, why not me? it's a good reframe is thinking that

you're probably thinking that that's something that's possible for you, right? Like, so what you said about like, I'm not jealous of poets, like, I'm not jealous of musicians. I'm like pure admiration because there's like nothing musical about me. But when you see it like in the visual arts, like sometimes like that tinge is just like, why didn't I get that job? Why couldn't it be? And the the reframing that I've I've had that kind of like works in my mind is, you know, it means it's possible. It means the work is out there and it means like there's

Hannah Holt (05:48)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sylvia (06:11)
there's this sense of abundance that it could happen for you too. You just have to like make it happen. And it's a phrase like closed mouths don't get fed. Like you have to ask for it to put yourself out there, right? So it means like you've got to start pitching yourself to your existing clients, putting out the work that you think, you know, you could be doing. Cause I think all of us have been in business for almost 10 years kind of realm.

Hannah Holt (06:19)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sylvia (06:32)
And I think we've been there since it was a very like in its infancy of an industry. And now that we've gotten to this place where there's established pathways that people can follow, people look to others and then look to copy what's happening, right? Like that annoyance that we feel with like, what tool is that? Someone just recently was like, what tool is that on five of my posts? Like same question. I was like, please stop asking. And I think because there's a path in

Hannah Holt (06:36)
Mm.

Alex Hirsch (06:56)
Hmmmm ⁓

Hannah Holt (06:57)
that's

brutal.

Sylvia (07:01)
lace, like getting a little bit of a tangent here, everything starts to feel insular because you're like, okay, one person did lip glosses, now everyone's doing lip glosses, one person did glasses. And it's not even like, you know, somebody's thinking, okay, glassware, they're like, everyone's gonna do coupe style martini glasses. You know, like, it's like, it's like trends that kind of flow through everyone. And so that's my segue into artists way, like

Alex Hirsch (07:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yup. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Holt (07:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sylvia (07:25)
There is a need for us to look outside of this insular, like I'm just gonna copy what this other artist is doing and see you know, I just posted something. I did like little caviar spoons and people were like, I can't wait for someone to hire me to do this. I can't wait to do this now next. And it's like, I know it's gonna like flow through everyone, like once something gets saved a lot of times. But I think the artist's way was like this way for me to step outside of.

Alex Hirsch (07:40)
Hmm.

Sylvia (07:50)
what our industry is and what we're all doing and kind of bring that innovation in. one of my friends, Amanda Reed from the luxury calligraphy retreat and calligraphers of color. She always says look to other industries. She's like, in the wedding industry, she's going to these conferences and stuff. You know, there's things happening outside of us where it's not just like, what are surfaces that are engravable? What like what kind of what?

Hannah Holt (08:02)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Alex Hirsch (08:12)
Yeah.

Sylvia (08:14)
what can I do next with a chalk pen? know, it's like, there's the artist's way was, you know, similar to Hannah, I think it was like a little bit life changing for me. In that it got me into this place of for me, what resonated was like this inner child work and like what, ⁓ what in your life suppressed your creative urges? And what is it that you need to see that resonates with you?

Hannah Holt (08:27)
Thanks.

Sylvia (08:36)
that is in this like endless, you know, world of inspiration and what we can kind of take from. So a lot of it was about like filling the well. So more into the artist's way, there's like two exercises and they're like main ones that you kind of have to do every day. One was morning pages. Every day you open your eyes, grab your notebook and write three full pages by hand about whatever.

Hannah Holt (08:59)
Just like whatever. Stream of consciousness.

Sylvia (09:00)
Whatever.

Alex Hirsch (09:01)
Three? I'd get the tiniest notebook, are you kidding me?

Sylvia (09:03)
Three full pages.

Hannah Holt (09:07)
You

can't. There's no rule.

Alex Hirsch (09:08)
I'd be like, and we're getting a four by six notebook.

Sylvia (09:10)
like really large

too, but you've got to fill them. And like a lot of the days it's like, you you start off being like, okay, I'm starting this thing and it's supposed to be a stream of consciousness. So first is like just dump everything. And then the second, um, activity that you kind of have to regularly do is go on artist dates for 12 weeks. And so every single week you've got to figure out something to do. And at first it's easier, like, I'm going to finally go to that museum.

Hannah Holt (09:12)
There's no rules.

Sylvia (09:35)
And then you run out of museums because there's like, I don't know, three main ones. And you're I started going to niche museums. I started going to historical houses. they say you can go take a walk. You could do a nature walk. You could do a walk where you look for things that are blue. You can go to different neighborhoods. You can go to stores and whatever. But the stipulation is you do it alone because you're supposed to try and see what resonates with you. So here's my weird story that I teased to you, Alex.

Alex Hirsch (09:36)
⁓

Hannah Holt (09:38)
Great.

Alex Hirsch (09:39)
No.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

you

Wait, okay, before you tell...wait, should we put a pin in your weird story? Because I kind of want to go back. You made a lot of points, and both of you...both of you made a lot of points, and I just want to pause because...and also a classic, like, I want to save your weird story, because I am obsessed. I'm just like, I can't wait for this. Okay, so I think there's a few things.

Sylvia (10:00)
Right.

Okay.

you

Here we go.

yeah, yeah.

Alex Hirsch (10:19)
victim mindset was one that I think that was something that I remember also like shifting I don't know it was like my frontal lobe finally developed or something like when I was 27 I was like like this we don't have to play victim to everything yeah things are not happening to me things are happening around me you know you can only control your mental health so much blah blah blah and you do have a choice in like like I can

Hannah Holt (10:30)
Things are not happening to me.

Alex Hirsch (10:43)
take action towards

what I want to improve in my life, right? Like you're not getting, and we're going to talk about this in the, you know, under the circle of business, but like you're not getting the same clients that so-and-so is getting on Instagram that you're seeing, right? So it's like, what are you doing to get those clients? Are you trying to do the same lettering style? Are you trying to do the same like luxury vibe and palette? Are you trying to like bring that same energy that they've

to an event? are you trying to be a leader? I just feel like people don't take time to dissect the differences between the people that they're seeing online, like the comparison, who they're comparing themselves to, and the gap between them and that person for instance. and also like do you even want that thing or is it ingrained in you to want what other people have, right?

Hannah Holt (11:36)
Right.

Alex Hirsch (11:37)
So I'd love to just unpack that a little bit of like.

what do we feel like the steps people can do are when they're feeling that way? like you said, Sylvia you were like, reach out to your existing clients and be like, I saw these like cool place cards. Are you having an event where we can do cool place cards? It doesn't have to be the fucking same, but those fucking lasagna place cards blew up and now every goddamn Italian place is doing these fucking place

I'm over it already. I'm like I've seen this 20 times I don't care that my clients seen it already like I'm like let's do literally anything else because

Hannah Holt (12:09)
something else.

I love that. was gonna say, I love kind of like where we're headed here of just kind of like jealousy is this indicator of like wanting something that you don't have or that like it's possible for me to have this thing. And I think a lot of people's reaction is like, ⁓ I want this thing. So I have to do what they're doing. And like, that's not the answer. Like the answer is to be, you know, what you were the kind of the road you were going down Syl of like,

Alex Hirsch (12:28)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (12:35)
I need to think about what, who I am as a creative, as an artist, as a business owner, and I need to take that to get the clients that I wanna be working with having the work that I wanna be doing. So like, it's a lot of that self reflection and it's a lot of that like, first of all, what do you wanna be doing? Like what about this is giving you jealousy? Is it working all the time? Is it just being booked? Is it working with specific clients? Is it doing specific work? Like.

That jealousy comes from like a lot of different places. Is it making the money? it, you know, it's having, you know, all of those kinds of pieces of jealousy, just they, they stem from different places. So just really thinking about like what that jealousy is stemming from. and then during the work of like, how do we, how do we get there? So I think that's where we can come into how artists way kind of like helped us become an independent creative to get the work and the clients and the business that we want to be doing that aligns with us as business owners and artists.

of like, can't get the work that I wanna be doing if I'm just trying to find this other formula that somebody else is doing, but I'm not this somebody else. So the formula isn't gonna work the same because I'm not this person. So they're not gonna resonate with me on that. So finding who you are and what brings you joy and how you wanna express your creativity and your vision is I think the best first step.

towards having that success, towards reaching those pieces of jealousy that you're envying.

Sylvia (14:00)
I think

like where you're getting out, I've had an opportunity to like mull over it in this way of like, what are your...

big goals in life, right? And I think, cannot remember where this came from, but I remember this exercise where someone was saying, think about what your big goal is in life or what you're trying to achieve. Just say it's a New Year's resolution, what you want this year, et cetera. Just say it's, I want to make five figures every month, or make six figures next year or whatever.

whatever that goal is that you have like just say it's I want a luxury bag, a car, a house, whatever. Think of that tactical thing like the thing that you are physically chasing after and then stop and think about how you want to feel when you get there.

I would love to hear what you guys think of that because I think that's like the missing piece of people thinking I want a successful business, but they equate it to a financial number or a number of followers or a certain amount of engagement rather than what a successful business is, which is very likely like I make enough money to like be happy.

Hannah Holt (14:53)
Mm.

Alex Hirsch (14:56)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (15:01)
or prestigious client.

I think.

Yeah.

Sylvia (15:08)
you know,

and like survive in the city I'm right?

Alex Hirsch (15:09)
Yeah,

to order food to my house whenever I want, know? Yeah. Yeah. No guilt at all. It's so hard. I feel like now I have to read this fucking book. I feel like I've gotten to all those things.

Sylvia (15:15)
all the sushi I could ever order, yeah.

Hannah Holt (15:17)
Exactly.

Alex Hirsch (15:25)
and it kind of feels like kind of like nothing. You're just like, and I did that. And I don't know if that's like a cultural thing, where we just don't celebrate our wins in a way that's like meaningful, or if that's like a me thing. Or just that like, it really isn't about a number. Like it's not concrete enough.

to actually like a five figure month, a six figure year, whatever, like yeah, great, check, check, amount of followers, check, amount of engagement, check, and it's like, okay, okay, and now what? cause also you always move the goalpost too, like we're always moving the goalpost, so it's almost like,

Hannah Holt (16:05)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Hirsch (16:08)
now you're gonna be chasing this other thing and like will that bring you joy? I don't know.

Sylvia (16:12)
Yeah,

it's hedonic treadmill, right? So it's like the humans just kind of get used to what you have and then like you don't celebrate your wins and then you experience lifestyle creep and it gets bigger and bigger and whatever. it's really getting into the concept of enough. Like I think as people who kind of own our own fate in having our own businesses, like the concept of is like very hard to accomplish because now that you know, you reach a point where you're like

Hannah Holt (16:14)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Hirsch (16:16)
Yeah.

Sylvia (16:38)
I've sold out all my hours, I can't possibly work anymore. Everyone's constantly like, how do I scale? How do I hire more people? How do I become an agency myself? And it's like, was it not enough for you to be a successful artist? Or like, what was enough for you? ⁓

Alex Hirsch (16:52)
⁓ I'm snapping because

Hannah Holt (16:54)
Yeah,

Alex Hirsch (16:54)
be an agency and I'm like, I don't want ⁓

Hannah Holt (16:56)
wow, yeah.

Sylvia (16:58)
And what you want

is very deeply personal. If we're looping back to Hannah, the direction of artists' way and what it is you want, it kind of digs into the desires of, OK, if we strip away what the world, what negative voices, what media and everything and everyone told you, what do you as a person, as that little, I think they call it inner artist in the book, what your inner artist wants?

Hannah Holt (17:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alex Hirsch (17:24)
inner artist, baby artist.

Sylvia (17:25)
Yeah and like

inner artist is sweet it's like honestly it's very like inner child because it's like before the world got to you like what did you want? Yeah like what did you want to be? What it what like what was attractive to you so that you can you know once you do these exercises the goal is to kind of be like okay what do you actually like and like why do you think

Hannah Holt (17:29)
Mm-hmm.

But it actually went. Yeah.

Sylvia (17:46)
broad question, not to you guys, but like, why do you think you want a Mez bag? You know what I mean? Like, why do you want like, you know, a bigger place to live in? Why do you want a certain kind of car that says something about you? And stripping all that back, like, what do you, what do you as a person want without external forces? Which is a complicated, big question for people who make art.

Hannah Holt (17:51)
Right.

Alex Hirsch (18:05)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (18:09)
Oh my gosh, yeah. And especially like self-employed people. was just gonna say like when I, you know, I left my corporate job and it was freeing because it was like, oh my gosh, now there's no limit. There's no ceiling on how much I can make or what I can do. But now there's no limit and there's no ceiling of what I can do. So I have to like, quit the...

Alex Hirsch (18:24)
Hahaha

Hannah Holt (18:27)
you just end up like keep chasing the same thing, like just keep moving and moving like more and more and more and more and more. I'm like, I don't want more. I have what I need and I have, and I live a good life and I'm happy, but I think it, you know, it is sitting down and with those questions and like stripping everything away or just talking to a friend of mine about this. It was just kind of like, I feel like I'm trying to do all of these things. And I'm just like, what is the point? Like, why am I doing this? And she's like, are you doing this because you want it or because of how it will look to other people? And it's like,

I mean, I don't want to say it's because of how it looks to other people, but like, I think it is, you know, I think that like, there is like some points in my life that it's just like, it looks impressive. It sounds impressive when you, you know, you you say certain things and people are like, wow, you must be successful. And that feels good. I'm not happy. know, you're like, it is. Yeah.

Sylvia (19:12)
It's complicated. You have to market yourself.

Right? Like, so it's like, I felt like you can stop saying that because you do have to market yourself to be sellable and continue to get the work. So then that in itself is like this, you know, you want to be like, I have enough, I'm satisfied with myself and all of that. But it's not the right message.

Alex Hirsch (19:17)
yeah.

Hannah Holt (19:19)
No, definitely.

But also need to keep this train

going. know what mean? Like I do need to keep things moving so that I can pay for my bills.

Sylvia (19:37)
Yeah, that's a marketing message.

have to brag about yourself, otherwise who else will? But that's complicated to people maybe watching from the outside and thinking like, I want to accomplish those same things because then maybe I'll be as happy as you are or as successful as you are.

Hannah Holt (19:41)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (19:42)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (19:51)
Yes. Oof, girl.

Alex Hirsch (19:53)
So

I think that that's what leads me to the second thing that you guys were talking about, which was, and I'm gonna reframe it as people need to like put their blinders on a little bit more. with the following people in other industries, follow photographers, follow muralists, follow embroidery artists, follow, I don't know, fucking anyone, follow like people in construction, I don't know. But like.

Hannah Holt (20:17)
I was gonna say interior designers,

Sylvia (20:19)
Yeah, I love woodworking videos.

Alex Hirsch (20:19)
Yeah. ⁓

Hannah Holt (20:19)
hairstylist, woodworking, yeah.

Alex Hirsch (20:23)
Yeah,

Sylvia (20:23)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (20:24)
I think that's kind of, it goes back to like, we're all trying to kind of like replicate what we're seeing. And I think it's very normal as like, I just want to say like, when you're like a new artist, and like a new business owner, you're like, it is very normal to like, try to follow somebody's footsteps, I think, and be like, they're doing that thing. They look successful doing that thing. I should do exactly what they're doing. Right? Like, that makes sense. and so I think like,

Hannah Holt (20:39)
Yes.

Alex Hirsch (20:49)
with all that aside, you know, there is a moment where you go, okay, like, no, I do actually have to like, be original or like original in quotes, right? Like, because what is original we can philosophize about that all day. But yeah, yeah, the individual. But yeah, I think it's like, put your fucking like mute calligraphers. It's okay if they're your friends, like, you know.

Hannah Holt (21:00)
Individual. Be individual.

Alex Hirsch (21:10)
make sure once a week to check in on them, give them some love on social media if you feel like that.

I think that more of us should be putting our blinders on so that we can give our brain the space to be an individual to figure out what we do actually want so that we aren't comparing ourselves as much in that specific way and just replicating what we see.

Sylvia (21:34)
I think one tangible danger that I'm kind of feeling with people just replicating is now that people are getting into, okay, engraving, it is kind of dangerous. It's a tool, it's machinery, pyrography and stuff. People are just seeing others burning on wood and then...

doing whatever wood surface clients provide. And I did like a very small amount of research and I was like, you can't just burn any kind of wood. A lot of them are like toxic, especially if they're finished with any kind of stain, certain kind of woods you're not even supposed to do. They're supposed to be like raw only. So a lot of the time when clients are like, can you burn this or that? I'm like, actually, no.

Like it's why I've gone the direction of like engraving wood at times. So like you could be poisoning yourself because you think every calligrapher is just burning on wood and they know the dangers of it. So we're reaching this like weird like materiality phase of like everyone's customizing every damn thing you can where it's like you're possibly really hurting yourself. Like I met someone at the retreat who was saying like they were having some lung problems and stuff and now they're really taking it seriously that they are always wearing

Alex Hirsch (22:40)
Shit.

Sylvia (22:41)
ask for engraving because you know what's bad for you? Microplastic dust inhaling, glass dust inhaling, wood dust inhaling, right? Because if you really think about it, you when people are, you're watching these carpentry videos, they're wearing like heavy-duty dust masks.

Hannah Holt (22:41)
So scary.

Alex Hirsch (22:56)
god, that stresses me out. always like, are you not afraid you're gonna get wood in your eyes? ugh! Or like metal strapnart? Yeah.

Sylvia (23:00)
Right? I don't know.

Hannah Holt (23:03)
My God.

Sylvia (23:04)
Exactly. So we're in this like weird

place where it's like the replicating what others are doing is like, there's got to be some kind of like background to like how people are doing things. if you are seeing people like, you know, without masks, it's very likely just like photographers like take off the mask for this picture or whatever. ⁓

Alex Hirsch (23:18)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'll do it for content a lot. Like,

Hannah Holt (23:22)
same.

Alex Hirsch (23:23)
I'm just gonna do this one.

I think we all need, we need to develop something better than that freaking like alien looking shield thing so we can talk to people.

Hannah Holt (23:32)
How do we be safe and cute?

Alex Hirsch (23:33)
Yeah, I fully thought you were gonna go the route of AI about the replicating thing though. So, thanks for the surprise on that. Not even.

Sylvia (23:39)
Not even. I just think like in terms

of materials and stuff, like people see what's on the surface and I get way too many messages that are like, hey, I tried to do hot foil stamping and it didn't work. What am I doing wrong? And I'm like, here's the variables, the surface, the tool, the foil, how fast we're going, how hard you're pressing. everything. Yeah, I'm gonna try something else. That's what I do.

Hannah Holt (23:55)
Literally everything. trying.

Alex Hirsch (23:59)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's another thing too. I think it's so interesting with everything being on the internet. People somehow have become less resourceful to use the internet. Do you guys feel that? I'm like, have you tried this thing called Google? Have you looked up a YouTube video?

Sylvia (24:15)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (24:17)
Yeah.

Sylvia (24:20)
They want the shortcut. Like people actually don't,

like, I think it's like coming through in like language now too. People want the shortcut so much that they don't say like, what are you, like, what are you using? What are you wearing? Whatever they say, link to blah, blah. Like they ask for a link. They want like all the way shortcut. They're like, they don't want the name of it. We want the link to it.

Hannah Holt (24:34)
Right, as if you're like a bot that will like just automatically blink.

Alex Hirsch (24:39)
Link

please.

Hannah Holt (24:41)
It's wild. Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (24:41)
and DM it to them right now.

Sylvia (24:44)
Yeah. Comment and

Alex Hirsch (24:45)
What?

Sylvia (24:46)
brave to get the link right in your DMs. ⁓

Hannah Holt (24:49)
Exactly.

Alex Hirsch (24:50)
I Want to go back to something you also said was doing the artist dates which I feel like That's the thing. I'm gonna go I'm most jealous of people with free time spending their time doing art shit That's like just for fucking fun and not for

to make money, so that's something I gotta work on, we all know this.

Sylvia (25:05)
implement it. You don't have to read the book. Just like 12 weeks, 12 artist days. Like just do it. You know the activity now, but that's the pressure of it. It's like every week you gotta do it.

Alex Hirsch (25:09)
True, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, okay, so going back to that, we have 12 weeks. Every week you go, you do something different. One of these weeks, Sylvia has a weird fucking story and now we need to hear it.

Sylvia (25:29)
⁓ okay. So like 12 weeks is like at first I was like, let me do some workshops and stuff. think, when I was doing it, did like, I did like a scent workshop, which is like fragrances, which is really fun. And it's like, you know, you figure out what you like and don't like. You mix your own. did, ⁓ there's a shoe museum here, Bata shoe museum. Love it. Cause I love shoe. ⁓

Alex Hirsch (25:34)
workshops, love a workshop.

Like the history of shoes, the different types of shoes,

like how do we...

Sylvia (25:52)
They have an archive of like

hundreds of thousands of shoes and they're like shoes that are historic, owned by famous people and they do certain themes. Like last year they did a sneaker theme. And yeah, like they'll do like heels. Like there was a crime, shoes and crime kind of theme. Yeah, so I went to a shoe museum. Then I went to, there's a ceramics museum here. I went to, I don't know, like once you're...

Hannah Holt (26:00)
Let's start.

Alex Hirsch (26:02)
⁓ that's sick.

Hannah Holt (26:03)
Love that.

Love.

Love.

Alex Hirsch (26:09)
Ooh.

Sylvia (26:18)
Like I said before, once you go through all these museums, you're like, okay, what else can I do? So I did end up going to a, there's like historic houses that are, you know, maintained by like the city and stuff like that. And usually it's just like free to visit them. So I to this old Victorian house, 1800s,

stuff and then there's a guide that goes through and they were like okay well check this out there's like art on this wall what do you guys think it's made out of and we're like I don't know she's like it's made out of like wires and hair and so she points over to like the vanity because we're in this like little bedroom and she's like back then the ladies used to have these little like jars and it was like a jar with a lid and the hole in it and she's like they would brush their hair and then just like put their hair in there and then downstairs there was like a loom so there was like Victorian hair art where they would loom the the hair

and make them into flowers. sometimes like hair art in the Victorian times is like associated with like people who passed or like cutting a lock of it. But people that were, you know, ladies alive and well collecting their own hair to just like make flowers and stuff. I was enamored. So like one of the things with the artist's way is like you're supposed to be like what like what attracts your energy? And I was like, this is so fucking weird. I'm obsessed.

Hannah Holt (27:09)
Wild.

Are you looming your hair?

Sylvia (27:32)
So I got hair. So I started collecting my hair. I haven't loomed it yet, but I do have a jar. Not yet. Who posted this video? Hold on one sec.

Hannah Holt (27:35)
Obsessed. my God.

Alex Hirsch (27:38)
Not yet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Holt (27:43)
I mean, yes, I want to

see it, 100%.

Alex Hirsch (27:45)
Yeah! Okay, she's gonna... Things I did not expect. This is... Nope. Love it. I didn't expect the story, nor did I expect her to be like, wait, you want to see my jar bear?

Hannah Holt (27:49)
Not on my bingo card. Obsessed. my god, I love it so much.

Sylvia (27:58)
Okay. Like I was like, ready, cause like, well I have like, this is like the part that I was like collected and like put on some tape. I have this drawer of my hair.

Hannah Holt (27:59)
She's like, this is weird. it. my gosh. So I love it.

Alex Hirsch (28:06)
What?

Hannah Holt (28:07)
Wait, so like you like...

What is that like ponytail?

Alex Hirsch (28:11)
You are okay. I don't know if

we should even I'm like this is like a stalkers like fucking wet dream. What? Just I got her hair

Sylvia (28:16)
So there was someone on TikTok and then like she's,

Hannah Holt (28:18)
Okay.

Sylvia (28:20)
she has been collecting her hair since 2020. You should look up the TikTok girl. Cause now she has like her own extensions basically. But like I've got like off of my brush, like this whole jar and then this is what I've been putting on pieces of tape. It's my hair.

Hannah Holt (28:29)
my god. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So like when it comes out, you like put it on the tape.

Alex Hirsch (28:36)
that.

Sylvia (28:39)
Like you basically you have to go through because it takes a lot of time to score. Now you gotta like brush it with a comb and then go strand by strand and every strand. ⁓

Alex Hirsch (28:40)
like a double-sided tape situation? I was gonna- yeah!

Hannah Holt (28:43)
You've been like detangling your hair strands to make this ponytail.

Alex Hirsch (28:48)
Whoa.

Hannah Holt (28:48)
I love it. I love it. ⁓

Alex Hirsch (28:51)
So you've literally made like a wig for yourself, like a future wig

for yourself. Or art, future art, because you're gonna loom this shit.

Hannah Holt (28:56)
my god.

Sylvia (28:58)
But now, you know what? There's

like designers that make like little earrings and like ties.

Hannah Holt (29:02)
She's like, imagine this is a time. A little Bolo? A little Bolo?

Alex Hirsch (29:03)
Not the tie! Sylvia!

Sylvia (29:04)
Not as smooth

high.

Hannah Holt (29:07)
Come on. my god, so I love it.

Sylvia (29:10)
homegrown. So I don't know, it was now because I have this like hair like my husband, that's like your witchy little activity when I'm like sorting my hair and keeping it and stuff and I'm like, what the?

Alex Hirsch (29:10)
I'm

Hannah Holt (29:11)
⁓ crap!

Alex Hirsch (29:22)
Okay, this is why you met

my witch when you said that. I was like, I'm pro-witch, so I love it.

Hannah Holt (29:26)
She's like, I'm a wish.

I love it. Yeah.

Sylvia (29:27)
Yeah, I love that.

it's like kind of the one unexpected thing that happened to me was like, I don't know, like you look to see what attracts you, what your energy, like what is interesting to you, and then explore why or what it is about it. And I'm just like allowing myself to do this insane activity. Yeah, it just like allows it.

Alex Hirsch (29:42)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (29:46)
Yeah, start like walking towards it. Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (29:49)
But is it insane or have we made it insane? Because like if you think about

it, it's a natural material and like using it as like reusing it is kind of like the most earthy thing you could do, right? Like yeah, what makes it weird?

Sylvia (29:55)
It's been done before, right?

Hannah Holt (30:02)
No, I love it. I don't think it's I think it's whimsical.

Sylvia (30:04)
mean, you know,

if out of nowhere somebody was like, yes, it's very witty.

Hannah Holt (30:09)
I think it's whimsy as fuck. And I love it. I don't know. And I just like, I love, this is like such a perfect example of like when you start to like really pay attention to that inner artist, that inner child of like when I get rid of everything and I like remove society's impressions of me, my industry's impressions of me, like my own like...

whatever that I've like filters that I've put on. Like what am I actually awed by? Like what gives me that sense of awe and like, can you believe this? Like that's what we need to be chasing always. And sometimes it means creating, know, collecting your hair and maybe, making, you know, out of it or something.

Sylvia (30:41)
Yes.

You it?

I think exploring those parts of your identity is like, it's not so, it's not something you learn in school. It's not something like people really give you time for. So again, like when you're forced to 12 weeks, 12 dates and like do it on a timeline, you're kind of like, God, I don't have, like I was pushed to go to this random museum because I was like, there are no workshops right now. I can't be spending a hundred plus dollars a week all the time on these workshops. Sometimes you want to flip things because like,

Alex Hirsch (30:49)
time.

Hannah Holt (30:54)
No.

No.

Mm-hmm.

Sylvia (31:15)
Who has like $1,200 to explore like, you know, all of this? So you just kind of end up doing these things that are like, who knows where it's gonna take you? that level of exploration of your identity is very, I don't know, it's like, just provides like a bit more depth and color to, you know, I just wanna copy whatever this other person engraved. I'm gonna make some hair art letters or something, I don't know.

Hannah Holt (31:18)
Expensive.

Alex Hirsch (31:19)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (31:39)
keep us posted

Alex Hirsch (31:40)
Yeah,

And I think there's such a difference too between like inspiration from something and then like straight up like doing exactly what you see. Because that made me think of like, you know, when you said making...

Hannah Holt (31:47)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (31:51)
letters out of hair. I'm like, Hom Sweet Hom does the food lettering. And I remember going to the Beignet pop up in LA and being like, my god, I have to use this powder. Like I have to make like letters, you know, and it was more of like an inspo thing instead of like

I saw her using it, so then I'm gonna use it. It was like, no, like I had my own original experience. I left my house, I saw friends and I like supported this local business. And then also got to like fuck around with powder for however many hours it took me to do. Like that sort of thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, so yeah, I think that's, that's I think the difference, right? It's like.

Hannah Holt (32:24)
I love that. Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (32:30)
those really reflecting and I think that's that sounds like that's the main point of our episode is reflecting on the why trying really to dig deep and also just shift some mind like your mindset like you have the power to fucking go be your best self and make the things that you want happen we're not

I say, I'm not saying there's not like privilege in going to do things and that there's not barriers in place for a lot of people. one artist date per week we could be not feasible for someone and like if you do have that and you spend, you know, one less hour scrolling social media, like what could you do with that hour? and I think it's just like a shift into doing more of what you want to do and less of the things that

feed that like comparison monster in your brain.

Hannah Holt (33:19)
Mm-hmm.

Sylvia (33:20)
Yeah, I think it's a delicate balance of like art and creating and then trying to make money, the capitalism of it all and seeing what's around you and what's working and who's making money. But that's all to say that like, I don't know, sometimes like what you're seeing, it might not necessarily reflect how much money someone's making. you really don't know.

Alex Hirsch (33:28)
You

Hannah Holt (33:28)
Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean that's definitely, I was gonna say, that's like, I was gonna say just like a blanket disclaimer of like what you see is not always what you think it is. And just to remember, you know, put your blinders on and go within, you know.

Alex Hirsch (33:43)
That's a whole other episode. I'm like, that's a whole other.

Yeah.

And it's okay and you don't have to announce it and you also don't have to do it forever. You could do things temporarily. Like I know Amanda Reed, who you talking about earlier, like what does she do? Like she shuts off her Instagram like once a week or something or like goes dark for two weeks and then comes back for a week or whatever it is and her mental health's much better off. So.

Hannah Holt (34:14)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (34:17)
Yeah, think, I think there's no have tos. You don't have to be on social media all the time. You don't have to be following what everybody's doing. You don't have to be, you know, I don't know. All the things.

Hannah Holt (34:23)
Mm-hmm.

Sylvia (34:28)
Yeah, I think like in

terms of like exploring your creativity, like your creative existence, like what you like. The artist's way is, it's somewhat controversial. Some people don't like it. Like it goes a little bit into like spirituality. Like there's a lot of disclaimers of like, hey, if you're not really into like her talking a lot about.

God and how that exists. There's like some, it's just like a bit dated in a few ways. So there's like a little bit of like, don't think too hard about it. Like, yeah.

Alex Hirsch (34:55)
Okay, got it. Noted.

Hannah Holt (34:55)
Yeah. Well, I think she,

I

Sylvia (34:57)
had to go into it for like...

Hannah Holt (34:57)
I think she even makes a note where she's like, I'm going to use the word God because that's the language I have. But put your own language in whatever that is. Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (35:03)
Mmm.

Sylvia (35:05)
Yeah, spirit source.

Alex Hirsch (35:07)
That's nice, acknowledging

that other people might have different. Okay, that's good.

Sylvia (35:10)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (35:10)
Yeah, but she's like,

I gotta, I gotta write a book. So I need a word. So like, yeah, there's definitely like, it's definitely spiritual in nature, I would say. But not, I think specifically towards like one spiritual thing rather just like, I don't know, art is whimsy and spiritual and creativity, you know, like, I think it's, you know, it's cool that way.

Sylvia (35:13)
Yeah. There's a bit of that.

Alex Hirsch (35:15)
I need a word.

Sylvia (35:28)
It is. Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (35:30)
Yeah.

Sylvia (35:30)
The other books that are similar in a lot of the principles are The Creative Act, or A Creative Act, The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. It's kind of the artist way, but no activities, and a bit more for men. I don't know. It's just a little bit more, it doesn't seem so woo-woo in the present.

Hannah Holt (35:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Excellent.

So true. No, no, it's just...

Alex Hirsch (35:48)
So boring, like what? ⁓

Hannah Holt (35:53)
grounded? Yeah, I was gonna say

grounded. think it's maybe.

Sylvia (35:57)
Yeah,

like and I think it's like a lot of people use it as one of like There's some activities ⁓

Alex Hirsch (36:00)
Is it more concrete, like less abstract in thinking?

Hannah Holt (36:04)
Maybe. No activities.

It is just like excerpts. It's either like a small essay or like, you know, a little like epitaph or, you know, it's kind of like a pick it up and read it as you go.

Sylvia (36:14)
Yeah,

I literally say it's for men because it's like people use it as like house decor, you know, it's like one of those like it's the Tom Ford book, you know. ⁓ It is, yeah. And then like Big Magic kind of has kind of like the same as strings.

Alex Hirsch (36:15)
Okay.

Hannah Holt (36:21)
It is good.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, me too.

Alex Hirsch (36:26)
Yeah, I like Big Magic. Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah.

I do always recommend that one, especially for people starting out. I'm always like, just read it. It'll help. ⁓ I don't remember why, but...

Hannah Holt (36:35)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's just like all this stuff just like gives you language

for like an experience, you know, it's just kind of like, I have this thing that I think I understand is going on, but I don't, it just kind of gives you language to kind of communicate it or at least like process it a little bit better, I guess, like, I don't know, being an artist is weird. And there's a lot of like, yeah.

Sylvia (36:55)
Yeah, I think there's a huge need for it out there.

Alex Hirsch (36:59)
that's a great point

I think we need artists so much right now. We need you to be creating. We need you to be doing it in any which way possible. So I would say like this episode isn't like let's put some blockades in front of you. It's like we want you to be your best fucking self and to be free and to be expressive and creative and this is one way that you can access that

Hannah Holt (37:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sylvia (37:24)
Yeah. I think a big thing is, like, if we're artists and we work with brands, sometimes there's that fear that, you know, you've got to be presentable to a certain extent for brands to feel that palatability of you as a person and your art and all of that. But like in this world trending towards AI and how brands are really wanting to show that

Alex Hirsch (37:36)
Hmm.

Sylvia (37:49)
they're not going the AI direction, they're going in like the craftsmanship direction. They want to humanize and humanizing is using real, flawed, weirdo artists. like, I think there's something to it to, you know, do things that are unique.

Hannah Holt (37:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alex Hirsch (38:05)
Yeah.

I don't remember who said it. Maybe it was like Stefan Kunz I don't remember. Which made what you said remind me of that. People want to see a brush stroke. People want to see it. The vinyl stuff, like you know, that's on buildings or whatever, the printed stuff. It doesn't, you don't feel from it. People feel that brush stroke. If your letters aren't like perfect,

Hannah Holt (38:16)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Alex Hirsch (38:28)
or like your brush strokes aren't perfect. It's like people love, it just, brings humanness to it. I was at a tech conference like a couple weeks ago and I literally, I think I broke everybody's brain being an artist there because of the amount of people that were like, what program are you using? And I was like, my literal hands. Like they, like I was like, please go touch grass.

Hannah Holt (38:47)
My hands.

Sylvia (38:52)
either of you experienced this where someone's standing in front of you and you're like, what would you like written on this? And they're like, let me check chat GPT.

Alex Hirsch (38:58)
five bazillion times. Yeah, I hate it.

Hannah Holt (39:00)
Too many to count.

It's the most depressing thing for Mother's Day. Valentine's Day. What do I want to say to the person that means something to me? What?

Alex Hirsch (39:07)
Mm-hmm. No, and then they end up coming up with the most basic shit

you've ever heard of.

Sylvia (39:13)
I know, so I've started to be like, I think you can do it. Like, I think you can think of something.

Hannah Holt (39:18)
I think you can do it. no, I'm always encouraging it that way.

Alex Hirsch (39:21)
It's a great tool. Sometimes we don't need to ask it for everything. We can just like take a moment. We could take a moment. It's okay.

Sylvia (39:21)
I know.

You know,

Alex Hirsch (39:30)
I think tech is a great tool. Let's try to use our brains and our hands and make things and that I think is the moral of the story here is like it's okay to be human.

Hannah Holt (39:41)
not only is it okay, but it's like important and meaningful.

Alex Hirsch (39:44)
Yes.

Sylvia (39:45)
I know that's it. drop.

Alex Hirsch (39:46)
That's it. That's it. All right. Well, Hannah, tell us where we can find you.

Hannah Holt (39:48)
That's all it is.

You can find me, Hannah, at Tallymark Studio.

Alex Hirsch (39:53)
Amazing. Sylvia, where can find you?

Hannah Holt (39:55)
about

Sylvia (39:55)
You can find me Sylvia at Via Calligraphy.

Alex Hirsch (39:57)
Okay, and then Alex at Signs for Our Lives. And this podcast at Keeping Up with the Calligs on Instagram or find us on any podcast platform. If you're listening to this, I'm pretty sure you're probably on one already.

This is a great little hot take episode, how you can kind of reframe your jealousy, reframe your competitive mindset, do some shifting. I hope we left you, I mean, I know we left you with lots of good nuggets of things that you can do that are actionable, that will hopefully shift your mindset a little bit about things. And as always, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for keeping up and we'll see you next time. Bye.

Hannah Holt (40:33)
Bye!