Hot Take: Working with Luxury Brands Isn’t Always It

Alex, Hannah, AND Cat discuss the nuances of working with luxury brands in the creative industry, particularly as event calligraphers. Booking that household name can be a huge business milestone! AND there are some factors you may want to consider before working with your next luxury brand. Do the values align? What’s the pay rate? The payment terms are what now?! You want me to sign a who what? As always, there are pros and cons to each side of the conversation, helping you determine what your next move will be.

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Alex Hirsch (00:00)
Hi, everyone. Welcome back. Today we are doing a hot takes episode. So we sorry, this is Alex Hirsch of signs of our Lives. And today we have two amazing people with us. One of them being our usual hot take partner, which is Hannah Holt, say hi. Tallymark Studio.

Cat (00:00)
Whoo.

Hannah Holt (00:19)
Hey!

Alex Hirsch (00:24)
And then we also have our usual co-host this time with us.

Cat (00:30)
It's Cat, hi.

Alex Hirsch (00:31)
Cat of Cat Lauren's calligraphy So welcome back everyone. So excited to have the whole crew here today. This is very exciting. I feel like it's a very like monumental. I don't know why it feels monumental. It's very silly, but it does. We're all available at the same time. Whoa.

Hannah Holt (00:46)
honestly the

biggest fee.

Cat (00:48)
Crazy.

Alex Hirsch (00:49)
Literally wild. So just to reintroduce the series, if you're new here or if you forget what hot takes are about, it's a fun mini series we're doing in addition to our usual Keeping Up With The Calligraphers topics that we do. Our goal is to really start conversations, bring different perspectives to the table, do it in a loving way. And as always, there is no one way to live your life and no one way to run your business. So you do you, Boo Boo. We are just here to...

add some thoughts. And today's topic, which is kind of an addition to our last episode that we did with Sylvia via calligraphy

we talked a little bit about dress codes and a lot of that did pertain to working with luxury brands. So Hannah and I actually did do a recording of this like literal months ago. So we're both going to feel like we're repeating ourselves here. Somehow Alex deleted this episode, but I'm excited because I think this will bring even, we have even more context to this now that the one with Syl came out.

Cat (01:53)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (01:53)
Okay.

Alex Hirsch (01:54)
And so I think we have a lot more to add. So I don't know if I buried the lead or if I actually said it already, but ⁓ our statement today is luxury brands might not always be it. And so that's where we're starting. That is the hot take. Yeah. So agree or disagree. Depends who you are. Would either of you like to start?

Hannah Holt (02:07)
That's the hot take. We love it.

Yeah, happy to. We'll jump right in. Yeah, luxury brands. mean, when you think about it, like in the industry, it's like a big deal. It's like, this is the client. Oh my gosh, I get to work with like these household names. Everybody knows who they are. And when you tell people like, oh, I got to work with, know, Gucci or I got to work with, you know, Lamborghini. Like that's cool. And everyone's like, I know who that is.

Alex Hirsch (02:17)
Great.

Hannah Holt (02:41)
Nobody knows what calligraphy is, but they're like, I know that one. So that's very exciting.

You feel like you get to like name drop a little bit. And so celebrate that. When you get to first do that, that's huge. But then you get in it and you get to see how the sausage is made a little bit. And it's kind of not all that's cracked out to be, you know? It's, I was just saying earlier, I like to consider like my, my luxury brands or designer branding jobs, like the bill paying jobs

brings in the paycheck, gets the money going, but it's not always a great time.

Alex Hirsch (03:12)
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I would say, you know, when I, I definitely within I've been doing this for almost eight years now, you know, part of that was like part time and it's been four years full time. And I remember getting my first luxury brand thing. I'm like, Oh my God, like, this is the coolest that like I've made it.

Cat (03:13)
Degree.

Alex Hirsch (03:31)
You know, and I think it's a huge milestone as a calligrapher. You're looking around and you're seeing other people who are in events who are working with these luxury brands and, you know, finally getting to work with them. It's like it feels like a really big deal. And then exactly like you said, you kind of learn how things go. And

Cat (03:49)
So,

Alex Hirsch (03:50)
sometimes it's really aligned. Sometimes you work with a team at a store and they are they're not like that uptight,

stuffy, like, cause sometimes like those older brands, kind of give that vibe, right? Of like, we're traditional, we're old money, we're da da da, right? And so sometimes you get in the store and while that might be the brand's

messaging, sometimes the team is like, ⁓ whatever, like we're going to be wearing our fits and we're going to be wearing them well. And we're going to...

be excited that you're here. We love artists and supporting artists. And then sometimes you will walk into a store where they're like, we are prestigious and anyone, any other luxury brand is not actually luxury. And they'll talk shit on other brands. And you're like, OK. You're like, I'm just here. OK, cool, whatever. So I think,

Cat (04:32)
Okay.

Alex Hirsch (04:41)
yeah, that's been a little bit my experience where sometimes it really just depends on the store too. The brands are really cool.

Cat (04:42)
So

Alex Hirsch (04:49)
It could be a milestone and then sometimes you walk in and the team is amazing and they're a little bit more inclusive and then sometimes you walk in and they are full elitist if you for yeah less of much words.

Hannah Holt (04:58)
Totally. Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (05:02)
Cat.

Cat (05:03)
No, I feel especially in the beginning, booking those clients is almost like a social proof. There is a piece of it where I feel like you're co-associating yourself with those brands and that does lend itself to be people perceiving you and your business, maybe it's more seriously, maybe it's more high end or whatever, because again, you're in the same sentence as those things.

the social proof to it, which is super exciting. But then I think as you maybe book different types of events or you just see how different events are run or you maybe move outside of just retail and maybe, you know, see what other options might be available. Yeah, kind of looking back, you're like, wait, I don't know that I love that. I didn't, I didn't really like sitting there for six hours to do four envelopes, but

Hannah Holt (05:43)
.

Cat (05:48)
I got that bag, so I guess that's cool. Money bag, not a purse, just to clarify.

Hannah Holt (05:50)
Okay.

Alex Hirsch (05:54)
I'm not even afford a keychain. Yeah.

Cat (05:57)
Hahaha

Hannah Holt (05:58)
So true.

Alex Hirsch (05:59)
No, I've done the math so many times where I'm like, so how much is a key jade? And they're like, it's this amount. I'm like, mm, okay, so that's 90 % of what I'm making today. Great. Won't be a warning.

Hannah Holt (06:06)
Exactly. Cool, cool, cool, cool.

Which is like a great segue into one of the reasons luxury brands may not be it is that the budget is not always there. brands that are selling bags for five figures and then come to you and want to pay you 50 bucks an hour, that's not an alignment. That's like not it. That isn't a real life example that I've had before where

it was a luxury brand and they came asking for some calligraphy during the holidays and they said that their budget was $50 an hour because they're insane. And so that is a little bit like, that's a hard pass, obviously. Like that's like far and beyond way below what they should be paying, particularly

Cat (06:35)
Okay.

Hannah Holt (06:54)
because what we're asking for is nearly a drop in the bucket in what they're making on a single day.

Cat (07:00)
On a single purchase.

Hannah Holt (07:01)
I mean, truly,

yes, like you buy one bag, you buy one dress or whatever, shoes, whatever it is, and that's basically what they're gonna be paying you for like a shift, which is bananas. So in my experience, a lot of brands, they'll hire agencies to hire you, and then you get that lame agency agency rate, which shouldn't exist for us. Click first, like we talked about in our subcontracting episode.

But yeah, it's kind of crazy. I have worked with some brands that do have like a appropriate budget. Sometimes they come to me and give me a rate that's higher than what I normally charge, which is awesome, but that is very few and far between. I don't know what your experience is, but for the most part, it's either on par or much lower, which is just crazy to me.

Cat (07:46)
it's all over the place. I think especially your location matters. Like we've said in so many of our episodes for a variety of reasons. One, or Alex and I are in SoCal. So I mean, there's a dime a dozen. They absolutely do pit us against each other and just drive the rate lower and lower and lower because someone will take it unfortunately. And hopefully that's not the case. And we'll continue to support each other to raise that up. But.

Unfortunately, someone in this area is going to take that rate. And they don't care who's in the seat. I don't know if that's also a hot take or not, but they don't care who's in that seat in our area at all. They will replace you so fast. If you're not available, they don't care. They're on to the next one. They sent out 10 inquiries at the same time they reached out to you. maybe location has something to do with it. Maybe you're more middle America and there's only one of those stores in the next

Hannah Holt (08:15)
.

.

Cat (08:37)
for states or something like that. Maybe they do have a smaller marketing budget in that area, right? I mean, rarely is it above and beyond. I think the only time I've had above and beyond was for not retail stuff. was like they're doing a private client dinner or something along those lines, but it's some type of like a special budget that's not their regular event

budget or not even event, but like retail budget.

Alex Hirsch (09:01)
Yeah.

It's actually it's very interesting. Yeah, when it comes to my gosh, I have like so many thoughts right now. ⁓ okay, I'm gonna put them in sections. ⁓ so the first thing. about the rate, I fully and I've accepted lower than my usual rate, because again, they are sending this to you know, 50 different artists across the nation. And they're like, you know, we don't care. We're just gonna have a seat filler. So that's one thing.

Which is great if you end up getting that and then you're always the sweet filler. That's great. You're like awesome. I love this But then on the other hand you're like, well, they're not even expecting a good lettering style for what we're doing or you know, they might have someone doing portraits or flowers or whatever And I feel like that I don't know about you guys, but that kind of gets in my head. I'm like, oh well actually like I'm not special at all

Hannah Holt (09:31)
Mm-hmm.

Cat (09:46)
you

Alex Hirsch (09:51)
Like it doesn't really even matter that this is a milestone. it's cool when you're talking to inquiries or clients or you know, a normal person on the street who doesn't really know art stuff and they're like, oh, you've worked with so and so and they're like, that's amazing to them, right? And then you're like, mm But like it really doesn't matter because they're not really hiring you for your specific style, even though you think luxury brand means luxury lettering, luxury style, luxury experience.

And so I definitely mentally struggle with that because, you know, that kind of goes into my next thing that I have in my head about like the luxury experience part, in my opinion, is reserved only for the clients that are like walking in the store and then.

we're definitely like treated like other of like a background item and that I struggle with mentally because it's like you know as I said in the previous episode we're artists. We want to express ourselves like you're hiring an artist that should be a really cool experience and I feel like they're kind of missing the boat when it comes to these activations because you could be hiring someone really cool, really talented like they're so

many talented people in the world so like why are we just seat-filling?

Hannah Holt (11:02)
Totally, it feels very much like

they're looking for a workhorse, just somebody to fulfill an objective. Which, it ties very much back to what you guys were talking about with Sil, of you're just meant to look like you're blending in with the background. not even, we can touch on dress code a little bit, when you talk about dress code, with a lot of these brands, it's not even about

dressing for the vibe, a lot of times they're having you dress so that you're really not seen. I've shown up one time in the dress code and I don't match the staff. Like the staff actually has an outfit on. They actually look like they're rec, they're cute. They're like, look like they're representing the brand. And like, I'm all here for dressing for the brand, looking like you're, because they've got like this, this vision exactly that you have to uphold. And look, I get it. I'm here for that. That is part of our job.

Alex Hirsch (11:37)
Yeah, they're cute

Cat (11:47)
or design.

Hannah Holt (11:52)
But sometimes I'm asked to dress as if I should not be seen or heard. They should only be seeing what I'm handing off to them, which I think to your point, Alex, totally misses the boat. I think that you're missing the connection between, if it didn't matter what we were doing or what we looked like, why don't you just have these pre-made? Don't even have me on site. Don't even have me here.

Cat (12:14)
Just

buy a stamping machine.

Hannah Holt (12:16)
Totally.

Alex Hirsch (12:16)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (12:17)
Like, why are we even doing this? And that just like completely misses the objective of having a live artist. here's this cool, interesting person that does this very cool, beautiful thing. And I get to engage with them. I get to interact with them. I get to have this whole experience with the art. And that's a huge pillar of my business of building connection through art. Like that's the reason I do what I do. And now they're hiring me to just be like, hey, just be a machine for us.

See later. And that's really frustrating. It's just like, why are you... What are we even doing here? What is the point?

Cat (12:48)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (12:48)
Or

alternatively, they hire a bunch of calligraphers to write in a style that's not calligraphy and they actually just want something in print and you're like, wait, what just happened? A very like weird, yeah. And you're like, again, what?

Hannah Holt (12:57)
but a very specific type of print. Get it right.

Cat (13:05)
You almost have to separate, like, let it be this cool thing, this cool milestone in your business, let it pay your bills, let that excite you, get that money, get that bag, a hundred percent. But that has to be separate from like your, like don't let them and the way that they set the situation up,

feed into your worth or make you feel unworthy or that your business is less than like you have to keep those things separate because they truly don't give a fuck. and you just have to know that going in and if you can take that on the chin going in then that's probably a really good fit for you. But like if you are especially new in your business and you're still trying to find your footing and you're really trying to start feeling like comfortable and confident, take the confidence boost of booking it.

Hannah Holt (13:31)
So true.

Cat (13:48)
But then if things start feeling weird or like they're treating you differently than maybe you thought, let that be separate of everything else. And just because the team onsite loves you doesn't mean corporate gives a fuck about you either. they might be like, ⁓ give me your card. I want to request you for next time. Corporate doesn't give a shit. They're going to do whatever they want to do. a lot of times the store team does not say anything. So keep that separate.

Hannah Holt (14:10)
And. ⁓

Alex Hirsch (14:12)
feel like that entire

monologue was just for me. Alex, stop caring.

Hannah Holt (14:15)
Feeling a little called out.

Cat (14:16)
Take what you need.

Hannah Holt (14:18)
I mean, that's so true. I that's why I say like a lot of these jobs are like the billpaying job. It's like, I've got a free weekend and they've reached out to me about this. Yeah, I'll take it up, but I'm not reaching out to these brands. I'm not trying to get them to hire me anymore. And like a hundred percent, that's what you do when you first start. please don't mishear me. I'm get your foot in the door, get things going, get the job. this is, is a big deal. But then once you start getting other work that actually aligns with your values and with your business, this becomes billpaying. Let them come to you.

Cat (14:27)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (14:46)
You get to be in like the, in the, in the pilot seat, the control seat, what do they say there? You get to be the leader. The driver's seat, oh my God. I

Cat (14:51)
The driver's seat.

Alex Hirsch (14:53)
There we go. I

was like, don't ask me.

Hannah Holt (14:54)
was like, planes, immediately. Conductors, trains, whatever. In the driver's You get to be in the driver's seat and you get to dictate what you will and will not take. You know, a lot of times for me it's like, oh, I've got, this day's free, it's in a week. Yeah, by all means, I'm gonna take that. that works out well for me. But then like, I'm not an artist at that job.

Cat (14:58)
Thanks

Hannah Holt (15:13)
my mindset for that is this is a job, I'm not creating art, I'm here as a machine, and they're paying me a bunch of money for it. This is gonna be an easy invoice, by all means. But yeah, that's a huge mindset. Easy money, horrible invoice.

Alex Hirsch (15:27)
Or, alternatively, alternatively.

Cat (15:32)
Horrible

process of which to receive said money.

Alex Hirsch (15:33)
Great transition.

Hannah Holt (15:35)
Exactly.

Alex Hirsch (15:36)
A lot of times I feel like the payment terms and I think there's laws in California. don't know if they, I like just read something about how payments for subcontractors or contractor, whatever it is, needs to be 30, net 30 or less. I don't know where I just read that.

Hannah Holt (15:49)
⁓

Cat (15:50)
⁓ we're about to change that

immediately in my contract.

Hannah Holt (15:54)
Let's go!

Alex Hirsch (15:55)
⁓ but there aren't a lot of luxury brands where they've done net 60, which means you are. Yeah.

Cat (16:01)
I've done a net 90 before. was like,

what are you doing that you need 90 days? Get your shit together.

Alex Hirsch (16:07)
for anyone who doesn't know what net 30 60 90 is, which is I don't know why that was like cute in my head because I listened to tick tick boom the musical anyways. So 30 60 net 30 60 90 are basically the terms from which like from your event date, you will get paid net 30 days after that. So if your event was on August 2, you're going to get paid on September 2, or like

Cat (16:32)
Yeah, why don't you

just pick a round number? You're gonna get paid 30 days after your event or up to, they have up to 30 days I think is technically what it is. They will pay you the 30th day at 11.59 PM.

Alex Hirsch (16:34)
I don't...listen...can't understand how my brain works.

Yeah. ⁓

Hannah Holt (16:48)
No, I've never paid earlier. When there's like net 30 or 60, like I've never been paid earlier.

Alex Hirsch (16:53)
Yep.

Cat (16:53)
almost always later, in fact.

Alex Hirsch (16:55)
Yeah, so I would say anticipate that and the reasons why is because basically with big companies, they have so many departments that needs to go through again, there's let's say there's like 150 stores in one country, you know, those stores, they're all paying their employees, they have payroll, and then they have a whole department for like, which payroll and then people making commissions and then da da. And then when they're doing the special activations, that's the marketing budget. And then where does that come from? And it has to go through all these different channels to get to

you, which sometimes is not the most efficient process on their end. So you know, if anyone's worked in corporate America or any sort of bureaucratic system, you know that sometimes things are not always efficient. And so that's usually why, in my opinion, I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but why they asked for the at least net 30. Net 30 makes sense. It's like, okay, yeah, it's got to go through all the channels, the people. Net 60. I'm like,

what are we doing? Net 90 what? I'm sorry, really what are you doing?

Hannah Holt (17:53)
That's many dicks. That's

Cat (17:54)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (17:55)
too many dicks.

Cat (17:56)
But it's important to know that because especially if you depending on where you're at in your business, don't count on that money coming the day of your event or after. So if you

are using this to pay your bills or you know, whatever you're using this money, it's allocated pre allocated in your head. That's something knowing stepping into this that you're not getting that money until another 30 days. So something to keep in mind.

Hannah Holt (18:20)
Yeah, and especially I have a hard time getting a lot of these types of clients to pay a deposit. I always require 50 % deposit upfront and it's really difficult to get that paid for these brands. A lot of times I won't.

recently I worked with a brand they were really wonderful in the sense of like I didn't get a deposit but the event was cancelled a week in advance and they paid me my full rate which never happens but amazing. Same I was like wait I opened the email and they're all ready they're like it's cancelled but you'll get fully paid I was like what amazing like this never happens and that's how typically that's how it should be.

Cat (18:44)
Wow, I love that for you.

Alex Hirsch (18:44)
Real love.

you.

Hannah Holt (18:57)
you've set aside this time, you've turned down work, you should be getting paid for that. But my deposit often acts as that kind of safeguard of if anything would happen, at least I get this 50 % and a lot of these brands won't do it because it takes so long for things to go through. And to your point, Cat, budget, you have to budget properly. When these invoices are coming in, you know they're not coming in when they're supposed to. So you just gotta push that and that's kind of bonus money sometimes in my brain. ⁓

Cat (19:22)
Yeah, or just

playing around it, yeah.

Hannah Holt (19:24)
And

whenever it comes in, it feels like a windfall and you're like, sweet, this is great. The other side of this is like, it definitely plays into like these tools of oppression for these large companies. Cause I've been with a company before where in my contract, I have a due date for my invoices. And if you are late, I can charge a 1.5 % late fee every day that it's late. I've worked with a large company, not technically a luxury brand, but a household name where they were six months late.

on paying me and I can put a 1.5 % charge every day that that's late. But now that means I'm not gonna get paid for at least another six months, because now they have to approve a new invoice, I have to go to fight for it. So for me, it's just easier to get the original invoice and now I've been paid super late, I'm not with the late fee that I'm actually due. And so then I'm just forced to kind of like accept their terms when...

Cat (19:51)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (20:16)
now.

Hannah Holt (20:17)
they've already agreed to my terms when they signed the contract. So it just kind of puts you in this holding pattern where like, yes, 100 % I am in a position where I can fight for that. But this was a big invoice and I've been counting on this money for six months. Like, what do do there? You know, it just kind of puts you in a corner where you're like, well, I guess I'm just gonna, I mean, again, they are paying the full invoice, but what are you supposed to do then?

Alex Hirsch (20:41)
Well, and then you feel it

because A, you're like the one that's the squeaky wheel. Like I just had this with one company. I think we all had this. I think it was 80 plus days and I was like, I just need like an ETA. Like what is the ETA? Yeah, I'm like, I don't even care if it's net 90 at this point. I just want to know when do it anticipate it so that I can stop.

Cat (20:47)
I think we all did. We all just had this.

Hannah Holt (20:57)
Just tell me what to do, leader.

Totally.

Alex Hirsch (21:04)
following up and take this like one tab out of, you know, out of my head. my gosh, what else was I gonna say? the contracts part. Sometimes like, I feel like sometimes they will sign your contract. Sometimes they won't. Also.

Cat (21:16)
It's

a 50-50, I feel like.

Alex Hirsch (21:18)
Also, yeah, I was gonna say with a luxury brand that I worked with, I ended up having to compromise on the late fee, even though my late fee is pretty similar to yours, like that structure. And they were like, we can only afford this. And I'm like, you guys were this much late.

Hannah Holt (21:32)
You agree

Alex Hirsch (21:33)
and then it's you kind of risk almost as a business owner from being that squeaky wheel of like being like, Hi, can you pay me for the work that I did? you sound like, excuse me, pay me like you said you sound demanding for some reason, which I hate, I hate the mindset of that. And then even though you literally worked and you're you agreed to terms. And it's like, are they ever gonna work with me again? I don't know, because I had to be the squeaky wheel 700 times to be like, Hello, invoice. So

Hannah Holt (21:51)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (21:58)
I don't know. It's very annoying. And they have the legal team to be able to fight your late fees if they don't want to pay it as well. So like, you're just a little solopreneur, at least for me, trying to work with these big ass companies that have an entire team dedicated to contracts and invoices and all these things. And you're like, trying my best. Hey.

Hannah Holt (22:08)
same.

Cat (22:15)
Just me. Party

Hannah Holt (22:17)
Just me calling my local

legal aid center, asking them for free what I'm allowed to do. I've got no team. The team is me.

Alex Hirsch (22:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel it could be really intimidating, both of like knowing that you might not ever work with them again and waving these sort of things and then also just having to then wave those things. it's very frustrating.

Hannah Holt (22:34)
when you were talking about contracts, sometimes they won't sign my contract, but they require me to sign their contract. And a lot of times that requires an NDA. ⁓ And NDA, not only that's a lot of times trying to cover like if you're in the back room and you see our sales numbers, you can't tell anybody, which like, fair, I don't care.

Alex Hirsch (22:43)
you

Cat (22:43)
Mm-hmm.

Like their goals, yeah.

Hannah Holt (22:55)
But a lot of times these also include that you're not allowed to post or use any photos of your work during the job, which now if you end up working with these kinds of brands frequently, you don't get any evidence of you doing live work. And so when you're trying to market yourself, whether it be photos for your website or social media or whatever it is, or even just having recent photos to send to clients that are like, what do you do?

you're completely losing out on all of that. And that is loss of income and loss of potential jobs. And that is garbage.

Alex Hirsch (23:30)
And Hannah says.

Cat (23:31)
All in the name of like protecting

their assets because God forbid the next luxury brand over is like, my God, that seated paper that you use for.

Hannah Holt (23:34)
There. Yeah.

Cat (23:41)
this event, like I must now duplicate like no that's not what's happening but sure

Hannah Holt (23:45)
They're trying to say that they're trying to hide that they're doing an activation as if they're the ones that invented like brand activation. Like I'm sorry, your like calligraphy stationary for Christmas is not any different than the eight other activations I'm doing. We're all doing it. It's not like you're not like the first people to be doing it anymore.

Cat (23:51)
Right.

Right.

Right.

Alex Hirsch (24:07)
It's definitely very interesting, the posting too, because I've seen people, I've seen clicker first post and I'm like almost like, hey, did they say you're allowed to post? And they're like, I don't care.

Hannah Holt (24:15)
Yeah.

Cat (24:15)
Oh,

yeah, and lot of people are just like, no, I'm like, bold of you. I'm in California and they're absolutely would go after me.

Hannah Holt (24:19)
Move because they can't. They're trying

Alex Hirsch (24:19)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (24:23)
to you've signed all the paperwork that says I'm not going to do this and they they will see it and they will come after you it's just not worth the risk. And so in that sense, you're just you're just like losing out on evidence of you being a working artist, you know.

Alex Hirsch (24:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure some people would say to at least you're getting that income. I think it's a little tricky because, again, we were talking about earlier, most of the time you're working for less of a rate than you typically would anyway. So if you were making up for that, that would make

little bit more sense that I'm white labeling and I'm not using my name and I'm you're not able to put anything on social media, put anything on your website, put anything on your promotional materials, put anything you know anywhere where people can see that you worked with them.

Cat (25:05)
Yeah.

Hannah Holt (25:06)
I

have heard some artists charging more for NDAs, which is an interesting thought. I'm kind of into it. You are getting an extra premium service by not being able to share your work or doing whatever. So I don't know. I've never done that, but.

Alex Hirsch (25:10)
Hmm, interesting.

Cat (25:21)
I've heard

of it, but not necessarily. I haven't heard of anybody specifically doing it for the luxury brands. I've heard of it for if it's like a celebrity event where they're like, well, I can't post about this kind of thing. But I haven't heard. I mean, ball out, by all means, if you can get it.

Alex Hirsch (25:35)
Yeah, I swear celebrity like

Cat (25:38)
go for it. But I think it's hard because we're talking about, to your point, a lot of times too, you're not taking these pictures. And that's hard for a lot of artists where this is the first exciting thing and they're excited to share about it. And it's like, nope, but you can't. There's this gag order.

Hannah Holt (25:39)
for our money.

So true.

Alex Hirsch (25:53)
I think that's a little different

too with celebrities because it's like they're gonna refer you or like whether the planner or maybe you know but like you would anticipate they they market you in a sense like right like

Cat (25:58)
Maybe.

Hannah Holt (26:05)
The potential for it

is a little bit more likely than the potential of luxury brand for sure.

Alex Hirsch (26:08)
Yeah, then you get more...

Yeah, you get more...

Cat (26:12)
Well, and they're they're

looking for the premium of privacy. there's a different function of that NDA versus the NDA of these brands. they're trying to keep it private for their guests or for themselves, you know, whereas I feel these brands are just like, don't share. I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to post this either, if we're being honest. ⁓

Alex Hirsch (26:25)
Well done, Sam.

Hannah Holt (26:28)
gatekeeper, you know what I mean? It's the difference between like private gatekeepers.

Yeah,

not super proud of this either. So.

Cat (26:38)
I don't like your weird italic style. I'm not going post it anyway, but thank you so much.

Hannah Holt (26:42)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (26:44)
So I don't know, I think it just goes back to does the brand align with you as a person, your values, your work style, your aesthetic, your whatever, right? And if not, you have a personal choice to take it or not, take it or leave it.

Hannah Holt (26:59)
Definitely. I mean, honestly, that's the goal. The goal is not to work with a luxury brand, but get to a point where you can say no to the brands you don't want to work with. cause it's not always an option and I can absolutely recognize that I can very easily say no to certain brands because their practices don't align with me or the, you know, activation doesn't align or it doesn't like promote my business or whatever it is. Like I can say no to that, but not everybody can. And

That's the goal, right? To be able to get to a point where you can say no to luxury brand as opposed to the goal.

Cat (27:32)
It's the next goal. You like hit the first goal, which is like work with them, get the experience, like get the social proof.

Alex Hirsch (27:31)
comp- Yeah.

Hannah Holt (27:33)
Yeah.

Cat (27:39)
And then get enough experience that you're ready to grow beyond what they have to offer because there is a lot more out there. Again, that might depend based on your location. Like if there was more remote, maybe retail is the only option currently available, but that doesn't mean you can't grow beyond that still.

Hannah Holt (27:56)
Absolutely.

Alex Hirsch (27:57)
Yeah, I think I'm still in my brain a little bit like torn between is this an opportunity for when we are at that, let's say next stage, do we speak up to these luxury brands? Do they give a fuck? Does it even matter if enough of us do it?

will it make a difference if we say like, hey, like, it's really ridiculous. You always make me cover up my tattoos or put my hair up or, you know, whatever it might be. Or it's ridiculous that like, I can't promote my brand with your brand or whatever. Like, I don't know, I kind of like, get it. it makes sense that they, you know, they're not going to vet every single artist to make sure that like, it's fully aligned. So maybe it's up to, I don't know, I think I just made a full circle that it's up to us ultimately.

you

Hannah Holt (28:38)
It's case-by-case,

individual basis.

Alex Hirsch (28:41)
Yeah.

Cat (28:42)
specific to context.

Hannah Holt (28:43)
It's context always.

Alex Hirsch (28:45)
usual, it's more nuanced than that. Yeah.

so the few of the key takeaways, I would say would be one that the rate may or may not work for you, because you want that like, it's money. That's great. Up to you. All right. What's another takeaway?

Hannah Holt (29:01)
It's okay for you to reach goals and make new ones when it comes to luxury brands. Have a goal to work at the luxury brand and once you've done it, have a new goal to be able to say no to them when your ⁓ value's not aligned.

Cat (29:14)
And be excited when that happens. Celebrate the wins, whether it's the money, whether it's the booking, whether it's the social proof that comes with it, but let that be separate of your value to them versus your value to yourself and your art.

Alex Hirsch (29:29)
well, with that all being said, thank you all for keeping up. As usual, you do you, it's your life, it's your business. And there's no one way to do that. And if you super aligned with luxury brands and working with them, keep fucking doing that. And if you don't, then don't fucking do that.

Alright, and then where can everyone find us? Well, everyone can find this podcast, Keeping Up With The Calligs on Instagram. That's where we try to post stuff. Alex here, you can find me at Signs Our Lives on Instagram. Cat?

Cat (30:00)
I am at Cat Lauren Calligraphy. That is Cat with a C.

Hannah Holt (30:03)
And you can find me, Hannah, at Tally Mark Studio.

Alex Hirsch (30:06)
amazing. Alright, well, thank you everyone for keeping up and see you next time!

Hannah Holt (30:10)
Bye!

Cat (30:11)
Bye!