Dress Coded, with Sylvia Wong of Via Calligraphy

The episode you’ve all been waiting for…

In response to a recent Instagram post 👀, Alex of Signs of our Lives and Cat of Cat Lauren Calligraphy chat with their guest Sylvia of Via Calligraphy about the nuances of professionalism, dress codes, and client communication.

They discuss a brief history of “professionalism” in work places, the inclusivity (or lack thereof) of dress codes at retail and brand events, and how to balance personal style with client expectations, through curating the pieces in their wardrobe.

Should artists just fall in line with corporate dress code standards? Or are there times when it’s ok to color outside the lines? Tune in to find out their thoughts. 

Sylvia of Via Calligraphy:

Syl's Website

Syl's IG

SomedayArtClub IG

Someday Art Club / LuxuryLettering101

Syl’s Instagram Post About Dress Codes

Other Resources + Links:

Alex's Nuuly Link (for $30 off your first month)

Cat’s LTK (LikeToKnowIt) Link

Book a Mentorship Session with Alex via Patreon

Title VII: Employer Dress Code Laws

Transcript

Cat (00:00)
the events that we're doing are so much more diverse. brand activations, private events, there's just a lot more that goes into.

an event, there's a lot more diversity in the types of events that we're working. So I do think that how we can show up is a little more ambiguous.

Cat (00:24)
Hi everybody, welcome back to the Keeping Up With The Calligrapher's Podcast. This is Cat of Cat Lauren Calligraphy and I'm here with...

Alex Hirsch (00:32)
Alex of Signs of Our Lives.

Cat (00:34)
And thank you for your patience. We're excited to be back with this episode. But first, I do want to do a little catch up. Alex, I know you launched since our last episode your mentorship. Tell me about that. How is that going?

Alex Hirsch (00:46)
⁓

I don't know if I would call it launch so much as put it on, I shared it, yes, I shared it. I didn't do any sort of launch situation. That would have probably been smart. But I'm doing more of a soft launch situation, a soft opening, if you will, of some mentorship services because I know a lot of folks would like to get advice.

Cat (00:51)
Well, you shared about it again.

Alex Hirsch (01:09)
And advice is sometimes really valuable and sometimes we can answer those questions in our podcast. Sometimes it's something that's really specific, especially if you want something specific to your business goals what you should do next with your art or oh my God, I have 700 ideas in my head. Which one do I start with? Because I feel like we've all been there. so very, very small amount right now. It's just...

like $40 a month. Not a month. I would say a month, but it's like technically a session and then you can cancel it afterwards. On Patreon is something that I'm doing is some mentorships. Patreon is basically a way that I don't have to put all this shit on my website. All my business tips, all of my art tips, like all of those sort of things that I've like wanted to share for so long. I can do that on Patreon. It's just like a hub.

Cat (01:49)
I feel that.

Alex Hirsch (02:00)
So, yeah. And so there's like different versions. There's a free thing. So a lot of the blog posts that I write are things we might have talked about, but then I'll just reword it a little bit differently and put it in a blog post. Or I don't know, I did something about how to keep your lettering straight if you're on site. Like something really simple, just like a little tip here and there. And a lot of that stuff is free. And then there's like an $8 month and that's going to be something where

Like I created a pitch deck template. when you're reaching out to brands and you are like, my God, I have to fucking create a pitch deck. what the hell is that? And what do I do? So yeah, just trying to keep it simple and put a lot of things out there for y'all. Yeah, for sure. That's the goal. Cause I don't love education being behind a paywall. Obviously that's part of why we started the podcast, right?

Cat (02:39)
and like super accessible.

Alex Hirsch (02:50)
Because there's a lot of things that we've learned over the years that are just like, well, duh, or it's just like a simple trick, right? And then the more intense stuff like engraving demos or things like that will be, you know, very minimal pricing situation. Yeah, so there's options. If anybody wants that, I've done a few already and it's been really great. I love just like 30 minutes.

quick sessions with people and I just I just know how much again how much I needed that I was like I just need someone to word vomit to and then they tell me what I do next or how to solve this weird problem that I'm having right so I'm like

Cat (03:28)
percent.

And then you've already had

a couple of sessions. How's that gone?

Alex Hirsch (03:32)
Yeah, great. mean, I definitely want to get feedback from everyone, but so far so good. I've received positive feedback, in my DMs and stuff like that and gratefulness. So pumped about that. you know, nothing comes overnight. So I think that's also something to note that it's like a lot of things are, okay, like these are the next steps and it is work, you know, for the other person that they don't have to go do the next steps.

Cat (03:57)
Yeah. ⁓

You

Alex Hirsch (03:59)
But I have very high hopes for everyone. Everyone's so talented. I've been working with like muralists. I've been working with watercolor artists. I'll be talking with a Leathergoods artist this week. I just I'm so amazed by how many different arts and mediums that could bring their stuff to events. It's so so freaking cool.

It's not just calligraphy.

Cat (04:20)
was gonna say,

love hearing that you, mean, obviously it would be great to have calligraphers, no shade there, but I love hearing that people from other niches are learning, it's just a reminder that business tips and stuff like that, it doesn't have to be so calligraphy specific and that's cool. Cause then you're getting inspired by them. Like what a fun relationship. I love that.

Alex Hirsch (04:42)
Yeah, I mean, we've talked about it so much the importance of diversity of thought. And I feel like that's so much in the art world, right? speaking of someone that we're gonna have as a guest, I learned from someone recently about taking my the tape that I use for my tattoo machine and using it on my engraving machine. I was like, duh, like, duh. So I think it just it's one of those things where I think it sometimes helps to have just like an outsider perspective of

someone who's doing what you're doing, but not exactly doing what you're doing. ⁓ Or someone who's been there before. yeah. But we, as usual, have, it's been like a hot fucking minute since we've been on here, because we have been doing the most, as usual. And then you have been out of the country again. Surprise, surprise. What passport stamp, what passport stamp did you get this year?

Cat (05:08)
Yeah.

love that.

And then, yay, I left.

Alex Hirsch (05:30)
or I guess friends.

Cat (05:30)
Spain.

So I had it in my old passport, which, sidebar, that is like the worst part. for those of you that don't know, like I grew up as part of like an airline family. So I was blessed with opportunity to be able to travel a lot. So I mean, my passport was like pretty full. And so I was really bummed when I had to get a new passport and then you have to get all your stamps again. So I got my Spain stamp.

back into my new passport, which is my favorite place in the world. When I started doing weddings two years ago now, which that's crazy. That was like my bucket listing. it was like, want someone to book me for a destination wedding in Spain. So it was just really such a cool moment. I mean, any of the travel I get to do is fun, but having that be my

Alex Hirsch (06:03)
you

Cat (06:16)
bucket list moment and doing all the things and then yeah, I'm excited. I don't know what the next bucket list thing is, but I'm going to figure that out.

Alex Hirsch (06:22)
You literally

manifested it.

Cat (06:27)
It was wild. But yeah, it was a chaotic trip, but like chaotic good, I guess.

Alex Hirsch (06:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, not chaotic

evil, chaotic good. Yeah.

Cat (06:36)
Yes, chaotic good. And ended up being a good trip.

Alex Hirsch (06:38)
And we'll do a whole, yeah,

we might do whole episode on that. I don't know.

Cat (06:41)
There was a lot to go over. I had a bunch of people in my DMs asking me bunch of questions. But yeah, so it was a good trip. And I'm excited to see what's next. I was.

Alex Hirsch (06:49)
was incredible. And you were there for a wedding, which I don't know if

you said already, but just to clarify for everyone, she was there for work because someone hired her to literally come to Spain and paid her to come all the way to Spain with them for their wedding.

Cat (07:04)
And then we tagged on some vacation on the front and back end.

Alex Hirsch (07:09)
I'm really proud of you for that because that is like, I feel like kind of a new thing.

Cat (07:13)
It is. I did not take any, am I lying? Hold on. Okay, the flight out was a 7 a.m. flight. So I had to be at the airport at 5 a.m. But the flight back was not. The flight back was a 10 o'clock flight. So you'd be very proud of me.

Alex Hirsch (07:14)
Yeah.

my god.

Okay. I mean, hey, that's fine. But more importantly, you didn't just go to Spain, stay there for 24 hours and then fly back like you usually do for these things.

Cat (07:36)
and then come back.

like I will be

doing this week when I go to New Jersey.

Alex Hirsch (07:43)
Yeah, exactly. So I'm proud of you. You enjoyed yourself and I can't wait to hear about it. It's literally been weeks and we haven't talked about it and I feel like it's so weird that we're just putting it off until the pod, but it's okay. I'll be patient.

Cat (07:55)
Well, the fricking adrenaline dump

after was crazy. Just dealing with everything and all the coordination of the stuff. And then I got sick right after and then you and I are constantly, but especially right now, once again, losing against the monster that is overbooking ourselves.

Alex Hirsch (08:11)
Listen, I was supposed to have my project schedule spread out and then one of my clients pushed their schedule a week and so now everything's happening in the same three week period where I will literally not get a day off between any of those days.

But yeah, mean, listen, sometimes you just gotta, I feel like we're sprinters, you know? We're not marathoners.

Cat (08:30)
we are.

Alex Hirsch (08:33)
Okay, so we we've already recorded the episode that you're going to hear next. And we'll do the bio in a second. But before we go into the episode and our guests who we were so excited to have

we wanted to give a little bit of background as to why we're doing the episode and some context behind some of the things that we were chatting about. Basically, the context is that somebody posted an Instagram carousel.

we're not gonna get deep into it, if you saw it, saw it, if you didn't see it, so sorry, we're gonna give you as much context as we possibly can, but only to a certain extent. But basically the subtext was talking about professionalism, was talking about event attire in a way that was just not the fuckin vibe.

And

It initially appeared that a lot of people were agreeing with the sentiment of the post. We and many other people in the calligraphy community read the rest of the... It was pretty long. I feel like people only read the first paragraph and then they stopped reading. So I think that was also part of it. Read the rest of the other paragraphs that were part of the post and we're like, no, that's not cool.

because it was something that kind of brought down our community. And if you guys have been listening for a while, you know that that is not what we are about. We are about supporting each other. We are about lifting each other up as much as we possibly can, like in a positive way. That doesn't mean that we're not, you know, providing feedback or things like that. But we want to do it in a way where it's going to be more uplifting.

I would say, right? Yeah.

Cat (10:08)
Yeah, just

helpful, helpful to the community for anybody that maybe saw that or is maybe just interested in hearing about that. If you're a little bit newer or now you're starting to branch out into different types of events where attire maybe plays a larger role than some of the events that you have been doing. And yeah, just like to be helpful and also to actually open up the

discussion surrounding it in a way where people can have that dialogue, can talk through the different nuances of it, and people feel safer, hopefully, to share their thoughts, feelings, questions, input, all of that.

Alex Hirsch (10:44)
Yes, 100%. And because of that, it did open up the discussion. So Silverlining, I feel like a lot of community was created. A lot more people found our podcast. So hi, if you're new here, welcome. Go listen to all the other episodes from season one and two. We have a lot of good shit in there. But if you have been listening for a while, then you know that

Cat (10:58)
You

Alex Hirsch (11:07)
We want to be helpful. This is all about community.

Okay, so background on the actual conversation that we had today with our guest was that we had discussed in the post, specifically me, Alex, had brought up the term white supremacy

And if you Google white supremacy characteristics, there are some things that will come up that are directly or indirectly

Related to the topic at hand that we're talking about today, which is professionalism and event attire and so Yeah, dress codes specifically. So there's there's a way that we're talking about this where we want What's best for all of the community?

Cat (11:37)
dress codes a little more broadly.

Alex Hirsch (11:47)
We want everyone to be able to get a job no matter what they look like No matter how they speak

no matter if they have tattoos or not or piercings or whatever. And I think it's really important to note that there are many different cultures in the world. We are coming from America when we're talking about this, which is a very westernized culture. And unfortunately, a lot of things that are deemed professional are also things that

might look or feel a certain way, which is only one way when there really are so many other ways to express yourself, to look, to be. And so again, when we're talking about this stuff, we it's a nuanced conversation. If you have like any specific questions about that, you're welcome to reach out to us. If you're feeling like, is uncomfy for me.

That's totally fine. it's, it's an uncomfy topic for some people. And, happy to provide resources where you can learn more about specific things. I know I personally, after that specific post, listened to like three separate podcasts about dress codes and the history of, you know, dress codes and how they are related to white supremacy culture.

And so I just want to come from a place of like, we have taken the time to really like, think about this, to learn about it. And it's not like to target anyone. It's not to call anyone out, but simply to call everybody in that we want you guys to be able to communicate to your clients. We want you to be feeling confident when you're at events.

We want you to have all the resources that you need. And so sometimes when we talk about these things, it's systemic. It's more than just an individual situation. It's because of a system that was set up that included some people and weren't really considering or thinking about other people. And so that's basically where we're coming from. I don't know if you have anything to add.

Cat (13:41)
I think the main takeaway that I had from it, and again, it was a great conversation talking through a lot of the nuances where I feel like the post didn't create any space for. But I think the largest takeaway for me was that a lot of the language surrounding.

professionalism, dress codes, all of those things tend to be very subjective and they don't mean the same thing to everybody a lot of times. ⁓ So taking it upon yourself, whether it's asking for clarification or offering clarification, however you and your client can get on the same page about what can be expected on site.

Alex Hirsch (14:08)
Yeah.

Cat (14:22)
regarding setup, appearance, conduct, or any of those things. that was the main takeaway for me find a way to objectively get on the same page and that'll work out best for everybody.

Alex Hirsch (14:33)
Yeah, I think that's so important. I think language is really important too, and that we didn't really get into fully than that in our episode that we're sharing, but I think language was the main... hanging... what is it, like the hanging point? The main...

Cat (14:47)
like where things get snagged, like caught up, go sideways, what do you want? I don't know.

Alex Hirsch (14:51)
Yeah, I think it's, I

think that's where everything went sideways was the certain language that was used and the way it is, it could be misconstrued because it is subjective and because it was coming from a certain place. So yeah, I think that's exactly it. And again, we're here for support. And we love y'all and

Cat (14:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (15:11)
Tell us about our guest that we had.

Cat (15:14)
All right, so if you didn't see it

in the title or the show notes or anything already, we got a chance to have a conversation with Syl or Sylvia Wong of Via Calligraphy. She's somebody that I have looked up to. I took her course when I first got started, which we'll talk a little bit about. So it was just like really cool to actually connect with her and get to talk about all of these things because she put together.

such a helpful post that was inspiration for this episode. a little bit about Cil. So she is a Toronto based artist that's known for her modern calligraphy and elevated event experiences. Through her brand via calligraphy, she brings luxury events to life with live engraving, hand lettering, and personalized touches that create unforgettable moments.

She's also the founder of the viral The Just Married Jacket project. Her iconic wedding jacket has been worn by over 200 Toronto brides and is now making its way around the world. With 20 years of experience as a digital marketing director, still offers a rare blend of artistic talent and strategic business insight. She's the co-creator of Luxury Lettering 101, which is the course that I took.

which teaches online courses and offers coaching for artists who want to break into the world of live events and building thriving creative businesses. Her deep understanding of branding and audience building sets her apart both as a working artist and as a mentor to others in the industry. So clearly, I mean, she's the best of the best and she's got incredible style.

Alex Hirsch (16:48)
No.

Yes, that is an understatement. I think she's definitely like outfit goals for sure.

She's obviously provided a lot to our community as calligraphers and artists and so we're super pumped to have her as a guest!

Cat (17:09)
and here's that episode.

Cat (17:10)
All right, everybody, welcome back to the Keeping Up with the Calligrapher podcast. We have a guest today that we're so excited about. have Syl from Via Calligraphy. Say hi.

Sylvia (17:21)
Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Cat (17:22)
Thank you so much for being here.

Alex Hirsch (17:23)
We're so excited you're here.

So we already gave a little bit of an intro, we already kind of said why we're here, so we're just gonna get right into it for anyone who maybe got to this point right now and skipped over the intro. But you...

have basically made yourself, well you are, you are the expert on this in terms of fashion, in terms of how you dress, in terms of how you basically talked about all of those things in the post that you shared. And so basically we just want to talk about all of that and like what does professionalism mean to you? Because it means so many things, right? And you know we want you to touch on kind of what is it for you personally?

Sylvia (18:03)
Well, thank you. Thank you for, I don't know, giving me that kind of credit and being the expert here. I think it's been a little bit accidental, but in sharing an outfit of the day every time I'm going to an event or something, I think has kind of made it a thing where people are now tagging me and saying, you know, I'm sharing my outfit just like Syl does. And I think professionalism is so contextual.

Cat (18:26)
So, thank

Sylvia (18:26)
Like if we're strictly talking about in the calligraphy world and going to events and we're talking about like how you have to dress, we're artists and we're often showing up as staff. So there are dress codes we often have to abide by. And that is what people, you know, these days think of as professionalism. But I think that we can't look at it without the context of knowing that professionalism has deep rooted ties to being very white supremacist.

like let's really get into it. It's a little bit ⁓ male centric. If we really got into, you know, how offices have been developed, it's like professionalism was a three piece suit and it was on a middle-aged man. And we can really, really get into it and talk about the dynamics of why temperatures are so low in your standard offices because they are made for men in their three piece suits and,

Cat (18:55)
Thank you.

Alex Hirsch (18:54)
That's the game, we love it.

Sylvia (19:18)
them boiling and being huge bodied and everything too. So they're kind of places that haven't traditionally been welcoming to women, women identifying people and have not been inclusive either. So I think the conversation of professionalism can very easily, again, you dropping the big white supremacy really aligns itself with, I think Alex, like you have.

directly refer to the characteristics of white supremacy, which I think like if anyone doesn't know what those are, they're really useful to look up to kind of understand inclusiveness and the systems built around us. So all that said, like I think, you know, the calligraphy community is very, very woman-centric and it's very diverse. So I see a lot of like my friends and colleagues that wear hijabs.

that wear religious dress and that is not traditionally included in old dress codes, right? In some countries, in some provinces here, those kinds of dress like hijabs even have come under controversy of law, right? So professionalism is like, it's a massive topic.

And I think if you come into the conversation swinging and saying, this is appropriate, not appropriate, professional,

not professional, you got to give me context for like what we're saying here and what you're understanding about what you might be calling unprofessional.

Alex Hirsch (20:35)
Yeah, no, I think that was such a perfect answer because at the end of the day, it's nuanced. And at the end of the day, like when we say professionalism, I think some people, like you said, they have this image in their head of like what that might mean, right?

Cat (20:48)
I'm

Alex Hirsch (20:49)
Or like the history of what that has been.

And so as artists, artists are people that are creative, we're expressive, we have our own unique identities. And so when we're given the term professionalism, at least for me personally, I'm always like, what does that mean to you versus what it means to somebody else? So I think what are some tips that you can give for us as creatives walking into these situations, working with various brands,

where we're not getting rid of our own unique identities, but still presenting in a way that might be more on theme or on brand or anything like that.

Sylvia (21:28)
Yeah, think if ever like the conversation is coming up and we are talking about things like what is professional, what is classy, like I hate both, you know what I I don't know, think classy is like now we're throwing classism into things and like really trying to describe what you know looking wealthy or of a certain class looks like. So not to not answer your question but like to

Cat (21:32)
Okay.

Alex Hirsch (21:37)
I'm just gonna say a few words.

Cat (21:37)
I am.

Sylvia (21:51)
to get into like, you the descriptors and the words we're actually using to talk about things. As artists, think

expressing yourself is like a big part of things and everyone has their own unique look or the way they dress or what they're comfortable in. I think the best way to prepare yourself, especially since like in the context of us as calligraphers, I think we're talking about people who work in events and not necessarily like, you know, calligraphers that are at home doing a lot more in studio work where it's like, doesn't matter the work is the work.

Cat (22:12)
Who cares?

Yeah.

You

Sylvia (22:35)
I have really ridiculous long nails and yeah, like I have, they're

going to have nail art on them. And as a result, I know for the most part that clients will have seen me in the process of hiring me because they have either seen my site or they've seen my social media, et cetera, where I post a lot of images of myself and what I look like. first and foremost, what are you going to look like on site? Right? Second, it is never,

off base for you to ask of your clients. What is the dress code? I just sent out an email today because tomorrow I'm going to be on a horseback riding farm.

Alex Hirsch (23:08)
All right.

Cat (23:09)
Incredible.

Sylvia (23:10)
And so I just said like, exactly.

Cat (23:11)
Equestrian sheep.

Alex Hirsch (23:13)
you

Sylvia (23:15)
I frankly, I just said like, am I indoors or outdoors? Cause I think that makes the biggest difference right now. Cause we're in heat wave. Um, but it's never off base to ask your client, like, do you have a dress code or if you really, really want to just like make it easy for them and not have them have to overthink it or explain to you, say, do you have a dress code? If not, I'll come in all black business casual. Right. And that's like,

Having that default of some kind of uniform can make things really, really easy. If I don't know what to wear, I've got this one outfit, same, everyone asked me, it's the Aritzia effortless pants, everyone, and some kind of vest top, that's it. So it can be really, really simple, but all that said, that means that most of the time you're coming to an agreement with your client, right? And so in those moments where you're wearing

maybe a formal dress and people are thinking like, why does the artist think that she's supposed to show up at this wedding with formal dress on? It was probably discussed with a client already.

Alex Hirsch (24:13)
Yeah, mean Kat could definitely speak to that for sure.

Sylvia (24:16)
I know you always get to wear like formal dresses.

Cat (24:19)
Well, it goes with what you had said about aligning expectations, I hate wearing all black and I hate wearing the business casual. one, I just didn't have stuff that fit that in my wardrobe already. So I just started asking people like,

What is the event? what's the theme? What's the dress code? And then that really just started being a lot more flexible. especially at weddings, I want to look presentable and I don't necessarily want to be perceived as part of the wait stuff, which there's nothing wrong with the wait stuff. But it's a different interaction I get from people.

it sounds like maybe my daughter woke up, Can you guys hear them? Okay, sorry. If you can hear this, it is what it is, sorry. Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (24:54)
Yes. That's OK.

Sylvia (24:54)
Yes, that's fine.

Alex Hirsch (24:59)
Mother hell.

Sylvia (25:00)
to

the e-poller broadcast, dogs barking, doorbell ringing, the pros even do

Alex Hirsch (25:04)
you

Cat (25:05)
⁓

But yeah, it was a very intentional, okay, well, I'm gonna go check on her, because now she's hysterical. So I'm gonna pause this, I'm gonna let you guys continue. Feel free to continue without me.

Alex Hirsch (25:17)
Okay. All right, quick pause for Kat to take care of the babies. So I think Kat just touched on it really well of just interacting with the clients. And I'm curious, do you have like a specific do you have something on your contact form? Do you just straight up ask them in your email, after booking or do you only ask certain clients? Because there are so many different types of events like wedding versus corporate versus brands.

Sylvia (25:18)
Let's go.

Alex Hirsch (25:43)
So what does your process look like for that?

Sylvia (25:43)
Yeah.

Just having a background

as a marketer, my form and my process for intaking clients is like as minimal as possible. So it's like minimal entry for them to just give me their email and their inquiry. I only just recently on my events page, like added number of guests, you know, so it's like very, very minimal. where I end up talking to clients about it is what I call the discovery phase, which comes from working at a marketing agency. Like you kind of have to look at where your client is and

their interaction with you in phases. And it's nice to kind of implement that into your workflow to call it a discovery phase, because there's a time when you're just like, what do you want? What can I do for you? what, like, right? Like sometimes don't you get like, yeah, yeah, don't you get people that are like, can you give me a quote? And you're like, for what? What? Sometimes I'm like, I don't even know if you're asking about an event or a commission or what, right? So during the discovery phase, it's like so fair game to be like,

Alex Hirsch (26:22)
Please give us more details other than the date.

Where is it? How many people? What do you want customized?

Sylvia (26:39)
Where is it? What's going on? But I have a sense of casualness with it at this point of being in business for like nine years where sometimes I'm finding out the venue like two, three days before. I'm like, it's fine, you know?

Alex Hirsch (26:51)
Yeah, no, that's

a good point. And I feel like that is something that I feel similarly about. It's that point of entry, I'm not putting it on my contact form. I'll ask like, what's the aesthetic and vibe if you want to, but it's not required. It's do you want to give me more info? Great. If you don't, whatever. Because that's

Sylvia (27:07)
Yeah, some clients are

good about it. Some less so, but like the ones that are like really intense about like the vibe of it, what's going on. They'll share a mood board. Like I've had clients that actually gave me the time of day where they're like, can I set a meeting with you to show you everything? And they walked me through the whole deck and said like, this is where you're going to be placed. Here's the mockups. Here's where we're getting printed, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that's so, so nice of them. Like so unexpected. And then some are just like, yeah, just show up. I'm to tell you, right?

Alex Hirsch (27:35)
Yeah,

no, that makes so much sense because it's just every client is going to be different. going to to you to kind of guide the process as well. So I think that's good that you're already doing that through your discovery and through how you're talking to them and what you're talking about. And yeah, you're right. Like the client is going to, if it's important to them, they're going to mention that. Right.

Sylvia (27:54)
Yeah.

because I do this realm of teaching and coaching I've had people come to me and say, I'm kind of worried about asking this. I'm like, what are you worried about? are you worried about not knowing? Because I don't think they're going to assume that you're dumb. They're not going to assume that you're inexperienced. They're going to assume that they didn't give you the information. And if you have it, you can show up better.

Alex Hirsch (28:14)
That's such a good point. I've been more inspired by Kat for sure. And then you more recently too, seeing you post this and like share more of your ooh-tah-dahs and your outfit of the day for anyone who doesn't know that. But dressing as part of the event, because it really, you know, I was just at an event where everyone was in like Girl Scout,

attire and it was the cutest thing like you show up and it was literal camp you're like wow I am here um I was not informed on my dress code so I was not dressed that way but I really I didn't

Sylvia (28:38)
Yeah.

So, so cute.

Cat (28:44)
Hahaha

Sylvia (28:46)
And sometimes you feel left out, right? It's like, if I had more information,

could have been in the right colors, could have been on theme too.

Cat (28:50)
Yeah. I think it's part

Alex Hirsch (28:50)
Yeah

Cat (28:52)
of our niche also evolving though, too, I mean, so you were doing it, you know, as one of the beginning people doing events, Alex, I feel like you also were in the beginning and you like dragged me along. but before, it really wasn't a whole lot of private events. It wasn't in weddings. So it really was just within like the luxury brands and stuff like that were the

dress code was a little more predictable or they already were assigning a dress code that aligned with the employees that they already have. the standards were the same because they wanted you to blend in. We're like five, six years down the line now. the events that we're doing are so much more diverse. brand activations, private events, there's just a lot more that goes into.

Sylvia (29:21)
I'm

Cat (29:35)
an event, there's a lot more diversity in the types of events that we're working. So I do think that how we can show up is a little more ambiguous.

So there's no reason why we couldn't or shouldn't ask how involved and how into that they want us to be. you know, I don't think that's a question that would be off base.

Sylvia (29:52)
No, not at all. I think like you're right about the evolution of the niche. We used to just be in these retail stores, just look like the staff, right? Now we're doing these pop-ups where I don't know, they're they're, really, really amping it up. Every pop-up has like 10 activations in it. ⁓ there's, there's like themes to them. They're really trying to like escalate and get people to share. after all of this, like after the post that I made and everything, someone messaged me and they were like,

Cat (30:08)
Mm-hmm.

Sylvia (30:18)
I'm going to an event where they just asked me to dress as a flight attendant. you know, like we're, we're having to get in these like cute little costumes and stuff. I was like, this is awesome.

Cat (30:21)
You

Alex Hirsch (30:21)
baby.

Yeah, I think that's incredible. And I think I would love to go back to you guys, you shared a little bit about the retail space. So I think a lot of people listening, like if they're not in Southern California, know Southern California, and I think in Toronto as well, where you are right, you're in Toronto. Okay, sorry, we're at photography, notably on this scale. ⁓ But I think like, there's places, there's cities, right, that have these type of like influencer VIP, like

Sylvia (30:42)
Yeah, that's great.

Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (30:55)
really like elaborate events, right? And then there are, you know, more, I guess like more typical events, right? Where it is retail based and they are asking you to come in a certain dress code. So I'd love to get more into that because that also I think is kind of what we were referring to, you know, through your posts, through my comments on the posts that we were,

Cat (31:00)
like remote areas.

Sylvia (31:20)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (31:20)
referring to that was not you, somebody else, about just like how dress codes could be totally inaccessible, So what are your thoughts on all these guidelines,

Sylvia (31:29)
I think like what space you're talking about, being in luxury stores where you're alongside, retail staff, you're usually meant to follow their guidelines too. And obviously my post is just a, 10 slide carousel It's not all the information in the world, but I do have multiple guidelines from clients that have been sent to me over the past years.

where they literally say in them like, no nail art allowed or your hair has to be in one of two hairstyles. No piercings allowed, long sleeves required or whatever. And then some are like a lot more casual. Some of them say running shoes, black or white color, you know? And then they have to be fully black or fully white. And sometimes you do or you don't have these things, right? So most recently I did have to work something and I didn't have fully black or fully white running shoes. And I was like,

Cat (31:54)
Cover your tattoos. Yeah.

Sylvia (32:16)
you the fashion math I had to do was what do I wear when I don't have those things? Because I'm not going to buy a new pair of shoes for this one day at this one job. And the way that you're supposed to navigate dress codes like that is like you dress up, right up on it. So like, it's like you don't dress worse than it. So rather than the black running shoes or white running shoes, I wore black dress shoes. I'm like, what are they going to do when they're nicer than what they intended? Right. But they can be fairly strict. then in

Cat (32:32)
down. Yeah.

Sylvia (32:44)
in some retail environments, they do provide clothes for you to wear. There's like one store where they give you like a little jacket thing to wear over whatever it is that you're wearing. So that strictness comes from their own dress codes and they just hold you to the same standards as what's happening in store. I can't speak to the inclusiveness of all of them. I will say when there's like a dress code that says that your hair has to be in a neat ponytail, I don't think that's inclusive of all hairstyles. So, um,

Alex Hirsch (33:10)
Yeah.

Sylvia (33:11)
But that strictness comes from a place of corporate. depending on what you know about when you work with brands and the contact that you have, sometimes you're being hired by the head office. Sometimes you're hired by the regional manager. Sometimes you're hired by the actual store manager. who is able to give you that leeway if you have questions about it?

I don't freaking know guys. Like it's like, it's like up such a big chain of like, you know, corporate BS that you're kind of like, whatever, abide by it or don't take the job. Right? Like if you really are against it, you can, you can be like, I don't work with these brands because I'm against it. I have brands that I don't work for because of like some of their values, but I'm not loud about it either. Right. And it's like, you know, just,

Cat (33:36)
Yeah.

Right. But I think to

Yeah.

Yeah, I

think I would love to see, which it's hard in the beginning, but I would also like to see more artists stand their ground a little bit. Like your point, I don't have everything that they would ask for. I don't have tights or I don't own loafers and I'm not going to go out and buy those things. So I've told them in the email, I don't have it. Here are the options that I have that I think fit.

Sylvia (34:03)
Thank

Cat (34:21)
Tell me what is workable for you as the brand.

Sylvia (34:24)
everything that you're saying too, depending on how long that you've been in the business, depending on your reputation, you have a lot more power in saying those things when you do have a following, you are able to get the next job and whatever. And I think the people who are kind of willing to say like, okay, nevermind, or they're even willing to take a

smaller rate or whatever, just take the job to get into the market and get work right now is a, whatever they say is the dress code. Like I'm going to follow it. You know what I mean? So it's like everything to do with dress code, professionalism, work, and your appearance is like, it involves context and our ability to say yes or no to a job is like a privilege too. think for me, like I've been in it for nine years now. I'm like very willing to kind of

lose a job at you know, they don't have enough for my rate or things don't work out or whatever. But you also then have to feel things out, right? Like just say the conversation you're talking about, Kat, maybe in like a typical retail environment, they're talking about, you know, bringing you into the store for like a special event or something. They have the time to talk to you about it. But if they're doing like a nationwide hiring and it's for Mother's Day or it's for, you know, days before Christmas or something and they're dealing with like

50 different stores, 50 different artists, might be like, fuck that. I don't want to talk to this person. I'm just going to find another person on my next Google search because it could be a pain in the ass. And this is not me saying like, you know, just abide by the rules and shut up or anything, but it's all contextual because I've caught, I've gotten myself in messes where it's like some clients like just, just hated me and my approach. And it was like the wrong time or the wrong sensitivities around certain things that I pushed back on.

Alex Hirsch (35:59)
Yeah, I think it's a good point, what both of you guys are saying, because I think it's you know, kind of up to people like us that have been doing this for so long to be in those positions and to be like, hey, this guideline doesn't work for all body types.

I mean, it was like no skin on my back, but like I had to pin my bangs back. I was like, what? these are my literal bangs and you're making me pin them back because you can't see my full forehead. and I have like, yeah, so I was just like, this is so bizarre. And like, I'm not even someone with like an Afro or someone who has braids or like,

Sylvia (36:22)
a passport photo.

Alex Hirsch (36:31)
someone was at a job like you said, where I'm like, what are we doing here? So I think, you know, maybe it's a little bit of both where I think we can speak up for ourselves. And we can maybe get to a point where, you know, some of us who've been doing it a little bit longer are the ones being the squeaky wheels. I know I'd be happy to at this point. know a year even like definitely two years ago, I wouldn't have been as comfortable being a squeaky wheel because

Sylvia (36:35)
Yeah.

Okay.

Alex Hirsch (36:57)
think it was just like, well, I really want this client. And now I'm like, well, fuck that client. Like, they're not letting me show my tattoos. They're not letting me wear my cute little belt that I always wear. I look like a cater reader. I hate this.

Sylvia (37:09)
I think like the, like the nail art client, by the time they needed me for like another, you know, it like they kind of come back like annually around Christmas time. It's like last time around, I was like, I'm not redoing my nails for this one job, especially if they're not paying for it. And like for my whole, I'm not going to have like the whole Christmas season where I've just got like plain unmanicured nails because they're like no nail art.

So I just went to the store and I just did it as is, right? Because there is the contract, but the contract didn't detail anything about abiding by those rules. So I was like, let's see where this goes, you know?

Alex Hirsch (37:40)
Love that video.

Sylvia (37:41)
And then like some of the rules to like sometimes clients send you the rules and they will encompass not just like what you have to wear, but like behavior and stuff too. And so they'll say like your phone has to be locked up in the back and blah, blah, blah, and whatever. And I think there is like a strictness level of things coming from corporate in which like they want their whole store and everyone to abide by. But then you're sitting there and you see like all the rest of the staff on their phones and stuff. And you're like, wait a second, how strict was this rule?

Alex Hirsch (38:09)
Hmm. Yeah. it's so dependent too, on the store staff because I've gone places where the store manager was up my fucking ass and I never want to work there again. And I've gone other places, same exact brand, but a different store. And the store manager was like, we fucking love you. Please come back, wear whatever you want. Just make sure it's black. And they didn't give a shit that my nails were black. Whereas the other one was like, excuse me, you must have the nude nails. I'm like, same thing. It's like, I'm...

Sylvia (38:17)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I think

it's important to touch on that amongst all these dress codes, amongst rules and everything that we're like, okay, if you have the privilege, you can break them. It kind of parallels things like white supremacy. Again, I'm going to bring it up. It's like white people are the ones where it's like, if you just follow the law and you don't break the law, then you're all good, but you won't be the ones penalized, right?

Alex Hirsch (38:50)
You

Sylvia (38:59)
similar where I think I learned pretty young that like I went to uniform school and it was like button up shirts you're allowed to have like one button undone never more than one button right there's like very very strict rules around things and there was like you've got to wear a white undershirt and whatever like I I could have as many buttons undone as I wanted to because I have a flat chest and I think I learned young too that if you have a flat chest you can wear as low of a thing as you want to and no one

will ever be like that slutty, they're gonna be like, that's so high fashion. Cause there's no cleavage to be seen.

Alex Hirsch (39:31)
That is such a good point. Because I feel that often even like, you know, Kat and I might be wearing the same outfit and I feel like it looks one way on her, it looks a totally different way on me because I'm like, I feel like the shortened, like, shortened wider version. And I'm like, oh, is it like I look slutty as shit because I am wearing like a low cut top where it might not look that way on somebody else.

Sylvia (39:52)
Right.

And so again, context, has everything to do with bodies. In this topic, we can get into fat phobia too. It's the curviness of your body and how much you're showing it and what people consider to be, again, another word that's not great is flattering. People saying, you got to wear something that's flattering to you, which what? Means you look skinny. Is, again, contextual on people's bodies, how they wear things, how things fit.

Alex Hirsch (40:10)
you

Sylvia (40:19)
And I think it's same rule might not apply across the board. So, uniform school, had like your skirts had to like with your hands down, go past your fingertips. But again, if you got a bigger butt, your skirt is just gonna look like shorter, right? Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (40:34)
Yeah, no,

that's so true. And I would, yeah, and even the girls with the longer legs, like their skirts would be shorter. And it's like, we all have the same skirt. Like they didn't do anything differently. Their legs are just longer.

Sylvia (40:44)
It's very contextual, they try

and, you know, rules are always trying to encompass like the spirit of like, you know, will it look slutty or not classy or unprofessional, right? And I don't know.

Alex Hirsch (40:55)
Yeah, I mean I say fuck that but all coming from the place.

Sylvia (40:57)
with caveats around, know, wanting

to work within them. think like, you know, creativity is bred from a place of having boundaries too.

Alex Hirsch (41:06)
that's so interesting. Did you listen to the

HumsweetHum podcast? I feel like she said something about that recently.

Sylvia (41:13)
haven't listened to it, but I have

been a long time follower and I have taken her workshop and stuff. yeah, I think like if you are limitless in like what you can create, it's actually like very like, it's very scary, you know?

Alex Hirsch (41:18)
Okay.

Yeah, no, just,

that was something she literally said like exactly recently, so I was like, oh, did you just listen to that too? Yeah, it's like, such a good point.

Sylvia (41:32)
amazing. I love that same way,

Alex Hirsch (41:35)
Yeah, think also, okay, here's another question. Because I think we really touched on a lot about how dress codes can fucking suck for the individuals and just systemically, right? How they're maybe not that inclusive and how we have, we can align to different brand guidelines.

But like, do you like agree to a point, right? Because I think, you know, thinking about the three of us, we all have very different styles. would you agree that there are clients out there that are hiring artists for more than just their talent because they're posting the outfits, because they're showing up with their face and their style on their websites and their Instagrams? Like, are hiring them for their vibe and what they're bringing to the event

Sylvia (42:17)
I think like a big part of that is like, especially when you work at an event, like you are meant to be a vibe bringer, right? Like they're not bringing someone just for the service. Like people talk about things like, Oh, like there's laser engravers. There's like all these tools that can kind of do these things, whatever.

I don't care. Like they're not bringing in that tool to make the event. Like they want the personality. That's why even then they're still going to need to hire brand ambassadors. And at a lot of like premium, like staffing agencies, a lot of the people, like if you start to talk to like the staffing agencies and the people that work there, there are people who are, especially in my town, probably yours too, they're actors. They're people who are like charismatic, right?

Cat (42:56)
Yeah. Yes.

Alex Hirsch (42:57)
You

Sylvia (42:59)
And so like they're there to create an environment and make like an experience. I've been told that I come and like make the event cooler. So it's, it's nice, right? I think that that part of it also means that you are directly empowered as the artist to continue to post what you're going to look like, what you look like in a space, what kind of energy you bring. Like, I think it's kind of important to

Everyone's always like, such a pain to do reels, to do these, the whatever. it's like, but you have to kind of show what you look like when you're interacting with clients because all of these like old still pictures of you, like, you know, just holding a pen and just like smiling is like, I get it. But like, what is it like to interact with you and are you good with guests? Right. ⁓

Cat (43:38)
Yeah, or just the feed

of like, tight shots of your work. It's like, what, what is your name? And what do look like?

Sylvia (43:45)
That's a big thing, right? And it's like, in, like teaching courses and stuff, it's like, first thing we tell people is like, good, like you've mastered the art of calligraphy, but, in the end, like a lot of the event world, they don't care of the quality of your calligraphy. Like they can't tell my work from yours from yours, which is like, sucks to say it's like wild. And it's like, maybe this is an extreme stance in some way, but like they don't.

Cat (44:02)
just crazy. Yeah.

Sylvia (44:08)
They don't care about the quality of your work. Yes, you want it to be good. You want to be able to like perform it. You want to be able to center blah, blah. But they're kind of hiring like a whole package, right?

Cat (44:19)
Yeah. For, I know for me, when I like first started like really stepping into my own, like it was like postpartum, I had this one event, it was a perfume event, but the whole thing was like a very like sexy, speak easy vibe. And that was like the first time I was like, I don't have to just wear these like weird button-ups. Like I can like go for it. And that was like, I did the whole corset thing, like.

Sylvia (44:20)
Thank

Cat (44:43)
So I feel like that's where that really rolled the ball for me. But I, before that, like, I couldn't understand the idea of like how to develop my own personal style, how to incorporate that or not into my business. Like I think for people that are transitioning from like beginning to do events and they're starting to get that ball rolling, do you have any tips or advice for them when they're in that kind of awkward phase and they're trying to figure out?

how to navigate their own personal style, find it, incorporate that into onsite and maybe some of the more common like dress codes, if that makes sense.

Sylvia (45:17)
Yeah, my god, that's like a hard thing to answer because there's so many creators and fashion theory and fashion industry people who talk about these things. I think finding your personal style is an endless journey. Like as long as there are, you know, new styles, new trends coming out and everything, there's always going to be something that's kind of like tricking you into shopping. And I have

Cat (45:37)
Yeah.

Sylvia (45:39)
I have lot of views around like, you know, fast fashion and shopping for every event and having capsule wardrobes and stuff like that. And at heart, I'm more of a minimalist and I like to buy for quality and like being obsessed with like pieces that you love. I'd say if anyone's exploring that right now, try not to shop, like try not to fill the void by being like, I'm going to shop and I'm going to buy the perfect thing. Try, try not to convince yourself that buying a capsule wardrobe is like buying every piece of that.

but figuring out the things that are in your closet now that you love and that suit the occasion. Thrifting is great for doing that too. Testing things out, getting some of the things that kind of fit you tailored goes a really, really long way as well. And like I mentioned before, like if we're specifically talking about like events, the event world and like what we're wearing, have a uniform for yourself. Like, and by uniform, like I'm not talking about like, you know, Catholic school uniform, white shirt, black pants, like

Alex Hirsch (46:30)
doesn't need to be boring.

Sylvia (46:32)
amazing slacks, pants that are

like fit to your body. If you like wide leg, if you like them skinny, if you like them barrel leg, if you want them pleated, not pleated, whatever, get a great pair for you. And then like some kind of like top and blazer, and then you're probably set for like 90 % of jobs.

Alex Hirsch (46:47)
Yeah, I would agree with that.

Cat (46:48)
Yeah, we agree. We're also not fast fashion girlies.

So both of us have been filling in a lot of these more fun events with like the subscription boxes and things like that, where you're able to pay, you know, a flat rate and you get to pick X amount of things like, and that's been fun for me to be able to switch out different styles or like, I would never buy a pink dress. Like that's just not me, but

I want to wear a hot pink dress and I know I will not buy that moving forward. You know, so that was also helpful for me and seeing like as my body changes, what feels good on it, and not like you said, shopping for every single event necessarily.

Sylvia (47:17)
It's so fun.

Yeah, and it's hard with changes in your body and then saying something should fit you to feel good and then it doesn't fit you because it's your changes in your body and your weight. I think fashion being a journey, don't jump on every single trend. Don't jump on everything you hear about. You gotta get something. And then don't look at me wearing something and say, I've gotta have that because it looks good on her. It's gotta look and feel good on you.

Alex Hirsch (47:49)
Yeah, I think it's just a good point. Like wearing things that like feel you, when you put it on, are you feeling joy? are you happy? like, especially as women, our bodies are always fluctuating. And I know having that, like, I don't know if I want to call it a capsule, but like having that sort of those uniform pieces that I'll wear over and over again, like I know, okay, I'm a little bloated today. So like, I'm not gonna wear those pants, but like those are great for like this other thing, right?

Sylvia (48:12)
Yeah. And my capsule

is going to look different from your capsule, right? It's like it's on the basis of weather, like what you feel most comfortable in, the types of jobs you mainly get to.

Alex Hirsch (48:16)
Yeah.

Cat (48:23)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (48:23)
Yeah, that's a good point too. Yeah, because some people are dressing for just retail and they love that like kind of like slower pace where you're doing like a few items per hour, where it's like, yeah, we're, we're dressing for yeah, these pop up brands where you're doing a lot. Yeah, so it's just like a different energy and that is incorporated into your style as well because it's supposed to be fun and not like this, you know, bland thing. I'm actually trying to talk a client out of t-shirts right now.

Sylvia (48:25)
Yeah.

You got hundreds, yeah.

Please.

Alex Hirsch (48:50)
I know.

Sylvia (48:51)
And you know they always order like the thinnest possible t-shirt, worst fit ever. They're so wrinkly when they come out of the box.

Cat (48:54)
Unisex.

Alex Hirsch (48:59)
Yeah, I'm like, we're gonna have a meeting about this. But yeah, just have a capsule wardrobe, have your uniform and it takes time. Like, and thrifting is really awesome. The cat turned me on to newly the whole like renting it's been so fun. Cause I don't wear color and I...

for all these events that we've had that require color, I'm like, okay, thank goodness I'm renting something because there's no way I'm wearing this like any other time. I think this was great. I think we did such a good job like kind of wrapping everything up into one conversation. I think all of us can do a deep dive into all of these little subtopics we went on.

Sylvia (49:23)
Yeah.

Right.

Alex Hirsch (49:37)
But is there anything that you would like to promote so that people can support you follow you? We'll obviously link your post and all your info in the in the notes, but yeah, what do you got for us?

Sylvia (49:41)
for you.

If you are interested in the topic of dress codes or everything to do with working with luxury brands, doing events and working in the brand space, I have a course called Luxury Lettering 101 that you can buy at somedayartclub.com. It's an amazing course and community in which you can kind of get into the industry and learn all of the basics, including dress codes, including what to pack for jobs and

Alex Hirsch (49:50)
and we'll

Sylvia (50:16)
figuring out what those first steps are to get your first brand job.

Cat (50:19)
I'm an alum. can

vet and agree. I loved it.

Sylvia (50:24)
Thank you so much. And thank you both so much for having this conversation and having me on here. I love talking about all things fashion.

Alex Hirsch (50:30)
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for coming on. All right, well, thanks for keeping up everyone and we'll see you next time.

Sylvia (50:33)
Thank

Cat (50:40)
All right, everybody, thank you so much. Hopefully you found that conversation as interesting and helpful and inspiring in a way. All the things that we did, again, it was so nice to have, so

So if you are not already following her, you can find her on Instagram. Her Instagram is at via calligraphy. We'll also put that in the show notes. And then Alex, where can they find you?

Alex Hirsch (51:05)
Signs of our lives on Instagram.

Cat (51:07)
And I am at Cat Lauren Calligraphy, that's Cat with a C. And if you're not already following us, what are you even doing here? Please follow us, we are at Keeping Up With The Calligs on Instagram. Go ahead and if you haven't already, rate us five stars, share on your stories when you're listening, add any comments, send us DMs, all the things. I know sometimes we post in ghost, but it does make us feel really good.

When you guys send us messages, do eventually see them and share them with each other and all the things. So please feel free to reach out to us. If you're interested in mentorships from either Sil or Alex, we'll also link in the show notes a way to do so. I guess also for me, I do that too.

Alex Hirsch (51:49)
And sorry, I just wanted to add one more thing. On our Instagram, also not incredibly often, but I would say pretty often are, whether it's the ourselves are looking to have event assistants or event artists or other sort of things that we can refer out gigs to or projects or things like that.

and sometimes people even DM us to like share something for them. We're definitely posting those on the stories. So if you're following us there and you're someone who wants to be looking out for work, then we're also sharing stuff on there. So follow us. Okay, thanks for keeping up. Bye!

Cat (52:21)
Yeah, so follow us.

Bye!