Subcontracting 101: Hiring & Being Hired as Event Artist

Thinking about hiring other artists or being hired for events? Alex + Cat dive deep into this controversial topic that's buzzing through the event artist / calligraphy industry right now - examining the honest pros and cons of both hiring other artists and being hired yourself.

From what makes someone totally rehire-able (or not), to the weird gray areas around pay rates and social media posting, they share their experiences from both sides of the subcontracting relationship.

Plus hear about that time Cat's engraver died mid-event and why Alex once turned DOWN subcontract work (but now loves it!).

Transcript

Hi everybody, welcome back to the Keeping Up With The Calligraphers podcast. If you are new here, welcome. We're so excited you're here. If you are not new here, but you still can't tell us apart, well intro anyway. I am Cat of Cat Lauren Calligraphy and I am here with Alex of Signs Our Lives.

And we are going to talk about, subcontracting. We'll get into what that is in a little bit. But first, let's catch up. What have you been up to, Alex?

Gosh, well, we've worked a few events together lately, which has been awesome. I feel like we've both done a bunch of like corporate, private, I don't know, brand, networking events, which are super fun. Yeah, so many events lately, which is super cool because it's only March and usually this is supposed to be our slow season, LOL.

I know. I saw someone posted recently that, I think it was maybe it was Erin, Nielsen Letters, is that who it is, posted something and everyone was like, oh my gosh, like the beginning of this year has been like busier than ever. I think someone had commented on our post that like they had made more or similar to the like amount they had made in December, which is always like crazy for live event artists. It's been a crazy start to the year. Hopefully the momentum stays up.

Yeah, no that's actually incredible. I love that for everyone though because it I mean we're always gonna say it but like if we're all like getting popular that means like more and more people are doing it and I fucking love it. So yeah.

Yes. Anything particularly fun or anything that like stood out for the beginning of the year for you?

Yeah, I mean, I did my first wedding event, which the last time we talked about, actually like, I don't know if I just forgot that it was like sitting in my inbox. I think I just like hadn't gotten like paid yet. So I just wasn't even thinking about it in terms of like, oh yeah, because I was like, oh, my first wedding is gonna be in September. I have so much time. And then LOL, like a couple weeks later, I had my first wedding and it was amazing. It was an Indian wedding.

Love.

And yeah, oh my gosh, I got to wear the garb and everything and it was amazing. So that was really fun.

And they had you doing some like Da Vinci engraving like doing it backwards on the bottom of the glass ahead of time.

Yeah, so they wanted me, I think it was like 200 glasses they had me basically so when you drink the glass, the couple's initials like their little monogram that they made would be on the bottom. So that was like fun, but I have my ways for doing things where I'm not like I wasn't like sketching each one, and they were all the same. And so it wasn't as bad as I think it sounds. Once you know like a process, it went pretty quick, so.

Yeah, I just did something recently. did an engagement gift. it was super cute, but it required me to do it both backwards and upside down. And I was actually very shocked at how easy that came. Like the muscle memory, even though it was like opposite, complete opposite direction. I was very shocked at, was like, I thought this would feel more awkward, but it turned out very cute.

Yeah, but like you sketched it ahead of time, like you didn't just.

Yeah, I did like a washi tape transfer so that way I could just like engrave through it. but yeah, I thought it was going to be a lot more awkward than it was.

Well, no, I just wanted to check that you were just like, it wasn't like I was just free handing backwards and upside down.

My god, can you imagine? Can you imagine? Like, okay everybody, this is now a skill I have, it's fine. No, absolutely not. Please do not hire me for a full event, both upside down and backwards, or singularly upside down or singularly backwards.

No. No, I get so stressed at events when people are like, can you do the bottom of my glass? I'm like, oh, it's gonna not look that cute. I'm so sorry. I was like, if I'm at home, I'll do it for you. I will spend the time. But at an event, please stop.

I don't like the guy that asked you to do the Bee.

My God. Yeah, I had to draw like a bee man and he loved it.

B-Man is the correct way to describe that. It had a full six pack. It was a very... That was a weird... There were a lot of weird requests out of that event, but the vibes were high.

It had abs. It had abs.

We were having a great time, We were. 

And you were traveling.

I was, I be traveling. I was in Palm Beach for like the blink of an eye.

Which is in Florida, right? For those of us who don't know geography.

Yes, is in Florida. Yeah, like literally us. But yeah, so I was in Florida and literally landed like the night before, had to engrave the bottles. So they wanted like pre-engraving on the back of the bottles. Again, it was like the Don Julio's which, have a deceptively small spot to engrave because of the shape of the bottle. they want it. But I got in so late. I was sitting there engraving and I started, I probably got through like 20, 30 of them. And then I was like, am I being a bad hotel neighbor? Like, do I have people next to me and they're hearing this fucking drill just losing their mind right now because it's like 11:30 at night. So I was like trying to call the front desk, but they weren't answering. It was like a whole thing. Then I waited until the morning to finish them. It was fine. But I was like, well, I would be very upset if someone was doing that. And it's just like, like, you know, noise for like hours, like 11:30 at night. So I stopped, finished that in the morning.

The planner team, they were so hospitable. I had never met these people before like ever in my life. Like they met me at the hotel when I got there just to like greet me and then like picked me up like offered to take me to go get food like picked me up instead of like me getting an uber like anything like picked me up to take me to the venue like wait until I was done like drop me off like they were so hospitable. I was like wow this is amazing. You guys are so sweet. So I'm very excited to work with them again, hopefully soon. I'm saying that is on experience always.

And that's on hospitality. That is on.

Mm-hmm. I love that. So wait, it was a wedding then.

I was there for the welcome party. So I literally was just like, it's a wedding event, but not the wedding day. But I mean, it was, it was real nice. And everyone there was super fun. The vibes are high. It's a little more casual. I mean, this was not any less casual. She was still wearing like a full gown and looked phenomenal. But yeah, it's just like less structured, less stressful, I feel like. But yeah, it was nice.

And I loved it and I'm excited for the next one. I think I'm pretty sure I'm going back to Palm beach in like a couple of weeks. I don't recall. I have a lot going on. well, I literally forgot to book this flight until like the week of, was like, got it. To be fair, they only reached out like two and a half weeks before, but I, in my head, as soon as I got it, I was like, yeah, I booked it. And then I was like, wait, what's happening in my landing? I need to send them my stuff. I wasn't landing because I had not booked a flight. So I was like, let me fix that real quick. So I needed to fix that. But anyways, it was great and I loved it. And it was a nice, it was a rainy weekend here and it was like nice and like sunny and 75 over there. So it was so nice to escape to the sun for a day and a half.

Hmm. Which sounds like so bizarre coming from people who live in SoCal. Like, ooh, I had to go escape and go to the sun. Like, what?

I went to the East Coast to find some sun.

Wild. Absolutely wild.

Okay, so today we're talking about subcontracting for anyone who hasn't heard what that is or needs more of an explanation. We're gonna kind of go through what that is today, as well as like pros and cons for subcontracting or hiring people, as well as the cons. Did I say pros and cons? God, I feel like I'm a... tongue twister over here. Okay, the pros for hiring people and getting hired and then the cons for hiring people and getting hired.

Okay, so I feel like you would best describe what subcontracting is since you asked your AI husband about this.

He did not give me great suggestions. So again, such contracting, if you are maybe newer in the industry or maybe you've heard it under another term, the context of which we're using it today is when you are bringing someone in to work on your behalf or work with you at an event as kind of an extension of your brand. And we'll kind of talk about those differences there.

But this person is not an employee, so you're not like formally hiring them to be a part of your business, like long-term. Um, you are, you know, they're an independent contractor that you are going to bring on for a very specific purpose or service or whatever that is, um, for a specific event. Um, and then, yeah, that's that. So that's kind of the context of which we're talking about that today.

Um, but yeah, I mean, we both subcontract other people and subcontract for each other and for other people. And I feel like we kind of both enjoy both ends of it. But lots of experience with both. Do you want to kick off maybe like your general like pros and cons for each or one?

Yeah, for sure. Okay, so I feel like there's a lot of pros and cons for both. So like, let's start with the person who's getting hired, right? So someone reaches out. And I also wanted to share, when someone first asked me this, I think it was like 20, it was 2019 or 2020. And someone had asked me to subcontract.

And I was like, under someone else's name? I could never work under someone else's name. And I was like, so in my head about it. And maybe like my ego took over, not really sure. But I was like, no, like, I don't wanna work for you. Like, I only wanna work for me, like in my business. So I just wanna share like that was a weird limiting belief that I had. And I don't know if anyone else shares that at all. But it actually can be kind of cool on both sides.

Yeah.

Did you ever have that experience or was that like a solely weird thing that I was going through?

I don’t think it's solely experienced, like something that just you had. I don't, that's not necessarily a thought I had. I feel like when I was building my business, I was combating a lot of like, I'm not good enough, like a lot of those limiting beliefs. And so I personally felt like the opportunity to subcontract for other people was a blessing, like a really big way that I could see how someone else was working, like learn the ins and outs of things that I was so unfamiliar with. So I did have limiting beliefs, but it wasn't necessarily like, I could never, like, I'm still just trying to like really build up my bad bitch energy for my own brand. But like, that was, that took a very long time for me to build up for my business. So that was not the struggle that I had mentally, but boy, did I have it.

Cause even like, it felt like such an honor for people to ask me, like, I was like, what, like, you think I'm good enough? And then I was like, in my head, like, oh my gosh, like, no, like, what if I let them down? Like, what if I let the client down? Like, so I was just like in my head about it for a different reason, but it's interesting to hear how, like, when we both had like our initial approach, like, well, we were at different stages in our business, obviously. Um, but just hearing how different our response, like our initial responses were.

Yeah, no, it's so like, it's kind of like weird to be like, who was I? Why was I so like, no, I am only going to work for myself, you know…

That's interesting.

Well, because you'd like just stepped. Well, I think you had just stepped out from like your full time. So you're like, I'm not trying to work for anybody else. Like you were like, I feel like in that mindset of like, I just left like working for someone else. Yeah.

Working for other people. Yeah, I'm trying to think like when the exact moment was and I think also like I wasn't really like in the event space either. Like I had been doing wedding signs still and so like doing any sort of event under the guise like or under the like the name of somebody else. I was like no, like someone should just give the job to me. That doesn't make sense and I think they also the way they proposed it might have been like “and I'm paying you less, and you can't give your business cards out,” and so I was just like… Well, no, that sounds really, yeah. Like I didn't think of it from the like the whole mindset of like you're getting experience, like someone's believing in you enough to hire you and like all of that.

Good for people to hear, both sides.

So yeah, we all come from some. Yeah, we all start somewhere. I don't know why just like had that thought pop in my head, but I was like, wait, like I actually like was asked before and yeah, that was my weird experience. I kind of think of it now as kind of like a second shooter situation, like for a photographer in certain situations. I think sometimes when we frame things, and everybody knows this, if you've listened to our episodes, I always frame things about coffee shops and lattes. But like, or if you frame things like just in another like context, I think sometimes it can be helpful to be like.

Yeah. No, I agree.

It's not just our industry where people are doing this sort of thing. Plenty of other industries hire someone else to do labor, like literal contractors who are doing physical labor on homes and things like that. Like they're hiring someone, like they're doing some projects. So yeah, the photographer thing came into mind as well. Cause I feel like when you were saying like, oh, I got experience. I feel like that's a lot of times when people are doing second shooting, they're like, great, I can work up my portfolio, I can help this other photographer and they take a lesser rate. They're not trying to like get business at that like event or whatever. It's just kind of like, well, I'm getting experience. I'm learning and all that stuff. So on that note.

Yeah. Okay.

Well that was your mindset about it now, like now sitting here X amount of years later, like how has your perspective shifted? Or not? Areas where it has and has it.

Great question. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's totally changed. Now I will for sure work under other people and I love to as someone who does hire other people. Getting hired is like one of those you're like, great, I can just show up. I don't have to communicate with a client. I don't have to like, figure out what items, like I don't have to ask about these ten questions and communicate it to someone else as well. I don't have to pay anyone. Like, you just show up and you get paid.

If you're being contracted by someone that knows to do all those things.

Yes. Also that. So far, mean, knock on wood. Yeah, knock on wood. I don't think I've been hired by anyone who didn't really know what they were doing. Now that I- wait, shit.

Which I feel like that normally is the case, but.

So your experience has been everyone that has subcontracted you has had their shit together, knew what they were like, had their client communication on point. Yeah.

Other than agencies. Yeah, I think other than agencies actually is… Other artists who have subcontracted me, that was kind of my perspective, like answering that question, the lens I was looking at it through. Because I think when it comes to agencies, so much gets lost in translation that like, I don't, I don't ever feel taken care of. Or I shouldn't say ever, rarely taken care of when working with agencies, as opposed to artists to artists.

Yeah, but I would agree. Other pros? I mean, that's a big one. But like any other pros?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean. I just think it's like cool to, I'm like great, no work, like I don't know, like no extra work is like super cool and fun. Yeah, what are you thinking? Did I miss anything?

I mean, I think a big pro of subcontracting, if the relationship between the person who's hiring and the person being hired is clear and everything is going well, it is such a fun way to actually be engaged in our calligraphy community. We're all so separate. We're all online friends. But very rarely do we get to see each other. So it's so nice to have someone to talk to that's not just the guests. It's just nice to spend time with these people that I talk so much with online. Even us, we're close, but we're not. So a lot of times the only time I'm really getting a chance to see you just because of how both of our lives are working is at events. So I'm like, I'm not like, I'm gonna go to work today. I'm like, I'm gonna hang out with Alex today. We're also gonna do calligraphy or like when I get to see, know, whether it's Betty, Jane, whoever, like all the people that we commonly work with, like it's just like fun to be in community with other people. I feel like that's a big pro.

No, I agree. And then you kind of see different things. I feel like I've always learned so much from Jamie too, because she has all of her little tools and stuff. And I'm like, wait, where'd you get that? Where'd you get that? So that's also fun to see different people's set ups, and how they work through things. And just even seeing people's workflow is so different and how people stop and they talk to someone, or they just like work right through and they just get requests.

So it's so interesting. Cause I mean, we worked in an event recently and we like didn't even get to talk the whole time. Like there was a time I tried to sing at you and you were just like, do it. And I was like, wait, like take a minute. Let's sing.

I know, that was a lot. That was a lot.

That was a lot. No, we had 400 people in three hours. It was a lot. But most of the time we do get to chat in between, which is nice.

That is a good one. I'm trying to think there I had another pro that I I get like I guess it still falls into the same thing but like you mentioned like it's nice, even though I have my own system set up like like you said talk like seeing how you explain what we do to the guests or like whatever else because sometimes I get stuck saying the same thing and I'm like, maybe I'm not being clear, maybe there's another way of saying this – as we are literally trying to Google like another word for subcontractor at the beginning of this episode.

So it's nice to hear different ways that people say things. And it's just like, you're never too experienced to not be able to learn things or modify things or make them more efficient. And again, we don't get a lot of opportunities, I think, to actually like, see it from other people and like out of a DM. So it's like nice to be able to pick up on some of that stuff that you might not even know you're doing. And I'm like, wait, why did you do it like that? And you're like, well, why would I not? So it's just, it's almost like a way of polishing or refining your own skills too, which is nice.

Yeah, this is like kind of a sidebar, but it kind of reminds me of like when I taught special ed, I'd get to go into people's like different classrooms because it was like sometimes like either co-teaching or an inclusion situation. And I feel like I learned so much like picking up things from other teachers that like if you're in your and then when I switch to just doing gen ed and you're just like in your little silo all day, you don't get the opportunity to see how other people are doing things in all the different ways, right? And so I feel like that gave me such a leg up with my teaching skills for my students. And then like when I became a Gen Ed teacher and it was just like so different.

And so I feel like it's just one of those things that like it showcases like diversity and thought is like so great because then you're just like, wait, you think about this this way and like this works in this way. And I don't know, just weird sidebar, but another fun analogy for everyone.

Yeah. I agree. I love that.

I think for me, a big pro for subcontracting, like especially, before I was like really putting in a lot of work in my own marketing and stuff like that, when I was just like very, I mean, I'm still very overwhelmed with my career, but like, when I was like really in the thick of it, I was getting primarily work through being subcontracted. Like I wasn't on social media, like my website, like who is SEO? because I still didn't know her. I just like wasn't in a space where I was able to invest in a lot of that backend, whether it was time or money.

And so honestly, like my business has been built on subcontracting and that's not like I got clients from subcontracting from other people. It's genuinely like, other people, thank God, like really appreciating me, my skill set, like the way I work, you know, with them or, you know, for them, depending on the situation, and continuing to offer that to me over and over and over and over again. Like that has carried me through so many seasons where I was like, I haven't had an inquiry in months, but I'm still working fairly consistently, you know. Like truly that whether it was referrals or subcontracting, like this community that we've built has taken care of me for a very, very long time. I'm, wow, getting a lot more sentimental than I thought, but.

You’re gonna make me cry! I'm like, you look like you're about to cry and I'm feeling it!

I'm sorry. But truly, it's carried me through and I'm excited to be more consistent now back with our podcast to really return the favor in a different way. Or now that I have picked up a lot more business, being able to subcontract other people. It’s nice to feel like after... I feel like I was taking for so long and serving for other people that I get to serve back in a way.

That's a big con- not con. Not con. That is a big pro for me. Not me ending that wrong. Gosh.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, no, that's such a good point to like when sometimes business can be slow. And I think having another way to get work like through tapping into your community is huge. Because then you're not 100 % relying on yourself, your marketing, your SEO, whatever it is. So that's, I think a great point. And I love that you got sentimental. It's cute.

Doesn't happen often.

I know, everyone take that in. But yeah, okay. So I feel like those are some pros of like if you're hired, right? Then, okay. I feel like cons for getting hired, getting subcontracted might be a lesser rate.

It might be, or it might not. I think that is still an area that our industry or our niche is kind of working out what that looks like. And I think it differs from like area to area. Honestly, even for us, like between us and we subcontract for each other all the time, like it depends, like client to client, event to event. Like, you've definitely paid me more than an hourly rate that I've had for myself and you know, we've agreed on a lesser rate for certain things, just depending on where things were at. So, yeah, I would say that when you're being subcontracted in our experience, the, I don't know what it would be like the hiring artist, I guess, I don't want to say main cause that feels wrong.

But like the hiring artist typically has negotiated already a budget with the client or that has already kind of been established. And it's a conversation coming back of like, Hey, this is the event information. This is the rate. Would you be okay with that? Which I don't mind that type of communication because then, you know, I could take it or leave it, but yeah, The rate is not necessarily as consistent as if you obviously were booking it on your own. I would say the perception is typically that it's lower, but it might not be the case. It might be higher.

Mm-hmm. Yes. I mean, I've said yes to lower rates, but I've also said no to things that were way lower rate where I'm like, this is the absolute lowest I can go, and they still couldn't meet me at that point. And I was like, that's not worth my time. It's not worth it for me. So I think, yeah, it just depends.

Yeah, same.

Yeah, so that could be a con because you don't have a clear picture maybe of what that looks like. Cons, I think sometimes the communication, I think my experience has been, I've always been subcontracted by people who have their stuff together and trust me to troubleshoot things. But I've been subcontracted where they want moment to moment updates as I'm trying to troubleshoot something and that is difficult for me.

Or conversely, they want me to go to them first before I take any steps to resolve it. And maybe they're not responsive for whatever reason. or sometimes they don't get back to me for like hours and I just have to make the best guess.

So those can be some cons again, that hasn't consistently been my experience, but depending on the situation that can be something that you run into.

Yeah, it kind of like reminded me that was kind of a milestone for me. A weird arbitrary milestone in my business when I finally got to hire other artists. I was like, woo! I am a big deal. I have two artists on my team. Like, or more than, you know, whatever. So I don't know that's a milestone for anyone else, but like for me, that was really exciting. Yeah, it's like huge.

Cause you're like, oh, like my client trusts me enough to bring in other artists or I look like I can do big events or whatever I remember being like, huh, okay, I finally hit this thing where I felt ready to actually hire other artists. And I don't know if that's why you have worked with more people that are organized or have their shit together. Maybe it was like my process was finally good enough or my website looked good enough or whatever it was where they're like, she's got it. She can hire more people, whatever. don't know. So I don't know, but we love it. We love the trust.

Now we do. And now we do it all the time, which is so cool.

Crazy and I love.

Also, I think a con that people could have, which I don't usually feel that bad about, again, it's fun to just go and work under someone else, is just potentially not being able to promote your own business.

Maybe you're working in a group and you're all under, you know, one person's business, which that like just makes sense to me. people will ask like, are you all the same? And we'll all just be like, no, we all have our own different businesses. But like I was the one hired for this event and you know, we work as a team. And I think also we're always communicating that to people that come up to us because it's like, no, we're working as a team. We all hire each other. Like this isn't one's better than the other. It's we're all this together and we needed multiple artists to make this event as great as it could be. And that's kind of the vibe I think we're all trying to kind of put out. 

Yeah, I could see that being a thing. I would say like most of the time I'm subcontracting, people prefer you to not, you know, I think it's weird. I personally think it's weird to have like multiple signs up. I think it's, you know, I could see it going either way. If like someone is like, specifically working with you, for example, maybe I've hired you for a wedding or something like that. And you're having an interaction with somebody and they're like, can I have your information?

I could see it going either way. I could see it going like, like, yeah, go ahead and contact Cat or you know, we've definitely had conversations where I'm like, yeah, that's fine. Like, ball out, like, you know, so we've definitely gone either way. think it kind of just depends on the event because it can look a little disjointed sometimes. but I think we also too have the understanding and I think there's been the same understanding with the other people I sub contract for, which is quite a few people.

The flow of information, or flow of any like inquiries or requests or anything like that goes to the main artist because it is their event that they booked. But a lot of times that referral comes right back out to me. They're just like, okay, like thank you so much for sharing that along. I'm gonna, you know, in the email they'll say like, this is the person's information you would ask for, here it is. Please feel free to communicate moving forward.

I guess I technically wouldn't know if somebody reached out to them and it didn't get referred to me, but I haven't. I haven't come across an experience where I saw them working with somebody later that I was like, what the heck? Like they asked for me or like they were talking to me like I've never felt that bad blood. I've never had that come up. So again, it makes sense in my brain for like the ease of communication, but I agree.

I could see that being a con especially if you're trying to establish your book of clients that can be a tougher break when you're trying to build your book of business.

Yeah, but I think it goes back to what you were saying that you're building it by having that experience and you can still post that you did something and you can still say like I worked with so and so for their event and that way it's just again it's more community minded we don't have to be like this was my client that was their client like we all got paid, we all did the work, whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. As long as the communication is clear between the person who hired and the person that was hired, that should be clarified. And in my opinion, like we're all adults, we all have our own businesses. So you're entering into that agreement, saying yes, that's fine. If that is the contingency.

So if that really makes you feel like some type of way, then maybe working that way, maybe working that person isn't a good fit or try it, see how you truly feel about it. Maybe you feel differently, I know sometimes there's not really an opportunity to pass on that, but there is that agency, you are able to say no or maybe negotiate. Like ask “Hey, what's the purpose behind this?” You know, like having like that professional conversation coming from a place of like respect. I think those are valid questions to ask.

But the answer may still be for whatever reason, like, no, this is whether my preference, whether that's what the client has asked for, you know, you're not, you don't know the contingency behind it. So I think also not assuming that's where that artist is coming from is also. Maybe a good place to start.

Yeah, well, even like some events like will be, white labeling, where you're not putting any of your stuff out anyway. I just worked for a talent agency And because they hired me for the event, they didn't want me to put my info out. And it's like, that's fine, whatever. and anyone who asks, I just gave them their info or I took down their info to give to my person. And like again like you said I'll still get the event or I'll still get the the referral so okay go both ways.

Okay now on to cons so sorry now on to cons for the other person first for for no I shouldn't mess up now on the cons no

We're still doing cons, that was the con.

Okay. I like, what? We are literally doing cons

Now onto cons for the person who is doing the hiring. Right? Okay. not the subcontractee.

Yes. Yes.

Correct.

Okay, so as the person who is hiring, there are, I feel like there's a lot of cons. Not if you're consistently hiring the same people, like you kind of get a flow and it's However, there is a lot of extra paperwork. There is a lot of extra communication and emails.

And this is with the client, this is with the artists or artists that you're hiring. And this is with collecting W9s, this is with getting people to sign a contract, like that they will subcontract with you and having that and that whole process as well as like during tax season. And so that's where if you're like, I hate admin work. I have bad news.

You're gonna have admin work if you're hiring other people.

So those are my cons, is really just if you're not into that sort of thing, which it's certain times where you're so freaking busy and you're barely home and at your laptop or whatever. Like for me, that can sometimes be overwhelming because I'm like, my God, I have like so much like communication to do and I forgot to put it in the email or I forgot to even email. And so I try to put it in like the calendar event. And yeah, sometimes you're just like, you don't want to miss things because you don't want your client to have a bad event or whatever it might be.

But thankfully, we like we all work together. We all know each other style. So like, it's been fine. 

Yeah. No, but I agree. Cause I feel like you're then responsible for two people's experience. Well, I guess maybe three, right? It's the client's experience. It's their guests experience at the event. And then it's also your subcontractor because I hope that if you're here, like you want to do that job well also. and that you're wanting people to also have a good experience when they work for you. So it is like you said, like having clear communication, making sure that they feel comfortable, confident, to represent you and be that extension of your business. we don't want to inadvertently put them in a tough spot when they're already being so helpful to be there and be an extension of our business.

So if you left a job for you didn't like wanting to manage other people or you really just wanted to have agency for yourself and that's it. Maybs subcontracting other people is not the vibe for you which is also fine.

And if you're listening this, yeah, if you're listening this and not watching this I'm nodding right? Yes. Yes. Yes As someone who used to manage people, it's literally not as bad as what I did. However, it's still yeah, you have to like put trust in people

Mm-hmm. Yep. And a lot of follow-up.

That would be scary. It is kind of scary your first time hiring someone you're like, how are they gonna do?

What are the pros for person who is hiring?

We didn't, but we'll just go like opposite. So we'll go pros, cons, cons, pros. We'll end on a high note before we transition. Did you have any more cons? I mean, that's a big one. I feel like. Trying to think if there's anything else.

Fucking paperwork.

I think it's just like the, it's not a con of everything goes well, but the con of like, guess if it's not a group event where you're there and you're hiring someone to be that extension of your business or like be there on your behalf and you, maybe there is an issue that comes up and that comes back from the client. think I have a hard, I haven't had that happen, but I would have a hard time if I didn't know like what actually happened.

So that is harder for me to come from like a problem solving or like being solutions based when I, I mean, I'm obviously going to hear hopefully like both sides of it. Um, but just like not having my own experience there, being able to like troubleshoot onsite. Like I never like feeling like I'm coming from a disadvantage when I'm already trying to like troubleshoot with somebody. So again, I think it's that trust of like, okay, like not just trust in the other person, but the trust in myself to be able to navigate any client conflicts or concerns or things like that that come up after the fact. Without me being able to draw from my experience, what I kind of perceive is happening on their end. And, you know. That's hard for me.

Yeah, I've had that situation. Like one thing came to mind where I was at a different event and I was subcontracting someone for an event and they had ordered glassware. And the glassware was supposed to come with logos on it. And I guess the company just sent blank glassware. And so like on site, the person I hired, which I literally wrote as a note while you were talking, I was like, saved my ass.

Like that is a huge pro of like certain hiring certain people where they've saved my ass multiple times. One being being able to handle that situation of like, I can't do a logo, but I can do this, you know, and providing the client with that, like knowledge and expertise in that moment when like, I'm not there. I'm working another event. I can't be sitting at my phone and like helping them through it. And like they managed it. And I was like, great, amazing. Thank you so much. Love you, here's extra money, you know?

Yeah.

I mean that would like switch us to the pros, is for me, like, I'm not gonna lie, I have accidentally double-looked myself for events before, like having two events on the same day in totally separate locations at the same time.

See back to working a lot of events and not getting back to your laptop.

Yes, and when you're like, crap, you forgot to… And also you have multiple calendars. Like I have my CRM on one thing. I have a Google sheet on another thing. And then I have like my calendar that I have on my fridge so that like my husband knows where I am because he's always like, where are you going today? And then I have like the one on my phone. So I'm like, there's a lot of, I know you know with your like kid schedule, there's a lot of calendars to update. So every once in a while something slips through the cracks and I've needed to like hire someone last minute or whatever it might be.

So that is a pro of having people that you trust. So yeah.

And then any other pros?

I actually, I haven't done the math on it, but I was going to say like, and I know people have been chatting about this recently of either collecting an admin fee. And so I've never actually done the math to see how much like per year it is to hire other people, like if it's even worth the extra admin fee. but I know I'm sure it add up. You know? Like say you have an admin fee of $100. I don't know. I'm like maybe you subcontract 10 events. That's $1,000? That's pretty good.

Yeah, depending on how much time the admin is taking you to go back and forth.

I mean, I think the pro again is community, especially when you're subcontracting to like all work together. That was so fun. Just like being in community with each other, I think that's a pro for both personally, but like I just love spending time with y'all. I don't get out of my house much.

She's like, you're my only friend.

Please be my friends. But it is, it's always more fun being around a group of people and all that. So pro. Okay, this feels lopsided. it feels like we were just like more cons. Like I do think there's a lot of pros, but I feel like it weighs out. Maybe it wasn't like numbers wise that we shared, but I feel like in my opinion, it weighs out. Hence why we keep doing it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's one of those things that we always talk about. If it's not for you and you hate it, don't do it. Like we know, one artist who she's like, I don't want a subcontract. I don't want to go get business. But if you want to hire me for your events, I'm there. You know, like that is her MO and it cracks me up. Like she was just like, I don't want to market myself, but like if you want to hire me, I'll come. And she's great.

But she doesn't want to market. She hates it. she doesn't want to post on Instagram. She doesn't want to work on our website. She's sick of it. She's like, not for me. So I think it's just knowing yourself.

I love that. A self-aware queen.

No, we don't know her for ourselves. But yeah, I think it's like taking that time to reflect. Like, are you someone who feels like you can manage that much paperwork? Do you feel like you can send a contract to someone else and make sure that they sign it? Do feel like you can communicate all the details of the event from both the client to the artist to multiple artists? Do you feel like you can pay them on time? Do you like, yeah, do you feel like you can do, collect their W9s, so that you can do send your 1099s during tax season?

Cat is laughing because she had to do that this year.

Triggered. I did not consider a tax season when I started subcontracting. Figured it out, there was a lot of panic that was probably unnecessary, but did not like it. got it done and now I know for future.

You got it done. You got it done. Yeah.

Like January, start them. Make sure you have everyone's little W9s and a little folder of all the people that you subcontracted this year and add up how much you paid everybody. It's a whole thing. It's a lot of math too. Anyways.

I think also, as we mentioned in our last episode, whether it's large or small, a lot of times weddings, you're likely hiring an assistant and even if they're like not hiring another artist, if you are hiring an assistant consistently and paying someone, that would be a subcontractor as well. So that's like something that could be considered.

I've never really hired… I don't think I've heard of a subcontractor to someone for a retail event. Only for like brand and corporate events.

You have it had like a multiple location situation?

I lied, I totally have.

I know I've definitely been hired and have hired people in like different cities for a certain, product launch or something like that, for retail. or like I've been asked to be… because there was so much paperwork that went into becoming a vendor with a certain brand. They were like, Hey, can we just like hire all calligraphy artists through you? And I was like, sure, like that's fine. I will take that on and I charge accordingly. So that way that like they have less labor on their part.

That's such a good point. feel like that I haven't heard, mentioned in the like subcontracting conversation is I actually have had, now that you say that, like brands or clients that maybe I have established and I'm subcontracting people on my behalf to be there. Not because like I'm trying to gatekeep my client or something like that, but on their end, especially like bigger corporate, it takes so many approvals to like get people in the door, like get you in the system to get paid, like all of these things. So you're right, I had I forgot about that. But like I have had brands reach out or clients reach out and just be like, Hey, like, it's actually so much easier if you instead of just referring this person to us and having to get all that established, like, would you mind subcontracting them? Because that's a take I feel like I haven't heard people talk about in some of the online buzz. And I want to highlight that because.

Yeah, I didn't know where you were going with that. was like, wait,

No, it's okay. It was a good thing. It was just a take that I haven't heard talked about. So I wanted to highlight.

Yeah, because that's honestly with a lot of clients. That's not even just for the one that I was thinking of in my head. I've had multiple where they're like, can you just hire someone? Absolutely sure. Because they also know me and they know that I'm going to hire someone I trust and someone who's going to be good and have the similar experience to what I'm delivering as opposed to they're just looking at people's Instagrams or trying to search on Google for websites. It's a little bit different.

Right, and a lot of times maybe they don't have time or interest in researching those things.

Or they don't know the difference between, like, they don't know what they don't know?

Right. Wow. What a great take. I'm so glad we went over that. Thank you so much.

Also just like knowing what the client is asking for is another reason to subcontract. I might know like certain artists who can do certain things and it's like knowing who can do what, right? It goes back to, I think we've talked about this like a hundred times. I feel like I'm just repeating myself. Sorry, broken record but you gotta know your skills. If you are hiring someone, you gotta know their skills in terms of workflow, in terms of artistry and all of the things.

Client experience, their limits, like their limitations, yeah.

Yeah, so I think that's like something that's like a factor when you are hiring someone. And also, I feel like we kind of forgot to mention like versus when you're like referring a job out. So like I wouldn't subcontract, for instance, a watercolor artist, or a portrait artist because I don't work with them usually. And it just makes more sense to refer out the inquiry that the client has. And I've done that before and I was actually like so jealous. It was for like a really big brand and they wanted something that I didn't offer. And I was like, sad, but like so cool for you. And she was like, thank you so much. And I was like, you're so welcome. Yay. I was like sad, why didn't they want calligraphy?

So I mean, it's just like things like that too, right? Like, so if you're like, when you're trying to consider like, should I just, you get an inquiry in your inbox, should I hire someone to work with me? Should I hire someone as an extension of my brand? Or should I just refer this? And I think like, what type of event is where, what the client's asking for, right? 

Yeah, and then I think we kind of already talked about multiple locations. Like if there's multiple locations, obviously you can't be in all locations at once. Yeah, or sometimes, yeah, or sometimes the clients like not really wanting to pay a travel fee to fly you somewhere or to, know, whatever it might be. So they're just like, can you hire someone locally for us? And it's like, sure, whatever. And yeah, also, again, I think back to I think I already went over it, but like the vendor forms, because there's so many.

Yeah, they have a lot of departments.

And they don't talk to each other at all. It's rough.

I actually had a conversation with like a brand this weekend that I finally got hired from. And I've worked with their like umbrella company. And I've worked with like so many of their different like, it was a spirit brand. And I've worked with so many different like, of the spirits under that umbrella. And almost every single time I've had repeat clients from like, once I get a job under that umbrella, I'll get a repeat. But then also under that umbrella, they'll be like, I found you on Google or like, I found you on Instagram or I found you on the, and I was like, you all work under the same company. I'm so confused. And they're like, yeah, we don't talk to each other. And I'm like, it's wild. Because you would think they would just be like, do you know an engraver that does this on spirit bottles? And they don't talk to each other, so.

That’s just not how people choose to use their resources, I guess. So we gotta find them where they're looking.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I feel like those are like the certain factors like that you could have versus like when you're referring someone versus just like actually taking it on because it is extra labor. So I think it is important to consider those things. And then I feel like we can transition into like being subcontracted and some considerations for like, we kind of went over this, but like why it is fun to get hired and like what artists might require of you, which I think some people might have been waiting for this portion of the episode because they're like, tell me how you will hire me. So I think that's like, it's a good, good little topic we should head on into. What do you think? What are some things that are considerations for being hired? Things we love about people we subcontract. That's where, That's where I'm going with this.

Beyond the event stuff, there's definitely some artist specific things that we look for in people and the people that we go back to time and time again have these skills, So the first thing that I'm looking for is somebody that is a great communicator, whether that's communicating with me, the client, the guests. Someone that also has initiative. Like if I forget to communicate something, they're already reaching out and asking for that information as well. So just all around a great communicator

Yeah, I would say there's nothing more scary when I've hired someone for the first time and they like don't tell me when they arrive, they don't tell me when they've left, they don't give a photo of the event, they don't give a recap. And not that I need every single one of those pieces. Like I don't need to micromanage your situation, like you got this. But it's definitely nice to let people know, like the people that are hiring you, if they're not at the event, especially if they're across the country, for instance. Like, did you get there? Is everything good? Are you like, I just like a, hey, I got here. Everything's good. Have a great night, or like something like that, I don't know anything.

Send proof of life.

Yeah, because it's just like very weird and eerie for me being on the other side of that. I don't know if you've ever experienced it. And so I feel like kind of a weird like mom where I'm like, Hi, did you get to your event okay? Like, everything's safe. You got there. Okay.

I haven't, thank God.

Yeah. No, literally. I feel like that ties in immediately with like someone that takes initiative So that way we're not having to be like the helicopter moms that like, Hi, what's happening? We

Hello. Send me your location.

But even to the point of like we were talking earlier, like feels comfortable and confident taking initiative in troubleshooting. If something comes up, whether it's taking decisive action or reaching out to myself, the person on site, whoever their point of contact is, like any of those are great options. Everyone's going to work a little bit differently, but someone that will just take some type of initiative and isn't going to sit there and just like wait in anxiety until they get direction.

Yeah, I've had so many events where like I've shown up and there's not a table and/or there's not a chair or whatever or like it's not the right.

Or they have no idea that we're even coming.

Yeah, mean, not so much anymore, thank goodness, yeah, like definitely with the old retail events. And then events where you can't like find where the items are. And like you have to like find the items to get them displayed or like shit like that, where you're just like, you need to have someone who's gonna have at least an ounce of initiative that you can trust that would go to the event planner or the venue operator, whoever, to be like, hey, I need my stuff set up. And they're there early enough where they're not just walking in at 6 PM when the event starts or whatever it might be. So that's also really scary, people not being. Because they are an extension of you to an extent. And so you're like, just like at least 15 minutes early. That's nice.

To the point of like the extension of you, the flip side of that is if you're a subcontractor, like you're taking ownership of that person and their decisions on site, that's a little bit of a risk you're taking. trusting someone to represent themselves well, but also representing you well, right? Like, that's tough. What else? What are your favorite things?

Yeah. I've definitely had, I also just think of like myself in situations. like, I had one wood burning event where there was like baking happening at the same time. It was like a VIP type event where there were like less than 50 people and they were like making their own like whiskey infused cookies. And so there were like a bajillion baking ovens everywhere, like, you know, easy bake ovens, but like the adult version. And then my foiling machine wouldn't work. because they were sucking up all the power. And so I went into a different room where there was like a different source of power. So it ended up being fine.

But like, in those situations, did you bring an extra pen that like, I've had that happen too, where like I was supposed to foil on hats and like the ribbon ended up ordering from like freaking a cheap, fast fashion vendor and the ribbon was not great and so the weave of the ribbon wasn't like, the foiling wasn't tight enough and so the foiling wasn't working so I was like, all right, well I do have this Sharpie in my bag that I keep with me at all times so I can write on the hats.

Like things like that where it's just like you gotta have someone who like, will have an alternative, like bring a pen, bring a Sharpie, bring whatever.

Someone like me that has like a Mary Poppins bag with literally every supply I even own.

Yeah, and I've shown up to an event where I literally left my foiling cord on my desk and, oh, I know, oh my God, it was a whole thing, but the person I was with had a second one. And I was like, bless you, like, know, alternatively, I was like ready to work with a gold marker.

Right. No, I will never, ever, ever, ever forget the event that my engraver died. I have two backup engravers. I had never used them before. Both of them were broken and I forgot that day to carry my charger. And I literally was like, okay. Again, thankfully someone saved my ass and was able to drop off a charger literally like 15 minutes later, not a calligrapher, but boy was I ready to reach out. But yeah, so in my head, I'm like, I need a plan A, I need a plan B, I need a plan C, like, and if all else fails, then it just, this was not meant to be successful.

But like someone that'll like pull out all the stops to make it successful again, represent themselves well, represent you well, serve the client well, serve their guests well, like that's the goal.

Yeah, they're not just gonna like leave and be like, sorry, my foilling machine isn't working, so I'm gonna leave.

Right, and provide not a single solution.

Yeah, also there's certain people that I love working with, because I'm like, I know when I show up. And same thing, like they had three lamps, just in case. And I was like, I only have one, but I love that you have multiple. So things like that where it's just like nice when people are super prepared and now I'm like do people like working about me because I don't have extras I Have extra mats. Yes. I do bring extra mats. I bring extra pens. I bring extra other stuff. And I bring a good vibe if anyone wants to hire

You have extra mats. And pens.

Yeah.

Not burrs. Don't ask either of us for burrs. We both go through like three burrs in an event

No, I feel like I actually carry a lot. I don't know why.

That's it. I do now, but if I forget it, rough. will use the one burr the entire time. Just a caveman etching.

Like, excuse me, is there a dentist here?

But yeah, so also just someone you know is gonna be a professional, someone who's gonna like talk to event attendees. I was chatting with someone recently about a referral I gave to another calligrapher and it was someone that like I'd met but like I hadn't like worked with them at an event before. And I had a client who was like, hey, do you guys work together often? And I was like, no not really and they were like okay so yeah we're probably not gonna hire them ever again. Like they didn't provide like a really great experience like they didn't talk to any of our guests at the event like they were kind of just waiting for people to come to them, like stuff like that. So also just knowing that someone's gonna take initiative.

We’re not  in the business of booties and seats. I think because this is, again, like an extension of your brand. Like, ideally would love someone that does vibe with my brand. Like someone that is, going to offer a similar experience, especially if it's a repeat client or, I mean, for all my clients, I want them to feel like they've got taken care of by me even if I wasn't there.

Okay. So we're back, but we're not back for a new episode. We're back in the middle of this episode because we had some technical difficulties. Cat was gone for the last 20 minutes of it, and Alex was talking to herself.

Just disappeared.

Yeah. and we just, to be honest, didn't want to do a whole re-recording.

No, we don't have time. We don't have time for this.

So we're gonna jump back in where we left off and finish this up.

Yes, I think we're also have I've been at events and I feel like half of this is like talking horror stories and like half of this is like our ideal person. But I've been at events where three of us were working the same pace and then the fourth one was working like at a third of our pace maybe even a fourth of our pace. And I was giving them like tips for how to move a little faster and like work along with the rest of us. But then, they still weren't really pulling their weight in terms of like the event capacity. Have I worked with that person again? Unfortunately not. But like, it's one of those things where it's like, I'm so sorry. It's not a good fit, like for me.

Unless I was doing an event where I was like, we don't have to worry about it. no biggie, but it was like a 500 person event. And there were a lot of them. Yeah, we all need to just be working, you know? So that's something that I am always looking for is someone who can, I know, I mean, you and I work really fast. I think we're kind of weirdos like that.

But someone who can get like close, you know, that is at least like attempting and not like, you know, I've had comments from clients who are like, you know, I hired another calligrapher and they were drafting and they were pulling out a ruler and they were doing this and they took five minutes to do what you did in one minute, you know?

Sometimes there's a time and a place for that. Absolutely. You want the work to be perfect and beautiful. And then there's high volume events where you can't spend the time doing all of those things. And so if there's someone on the team who's not willing to forego those. Yeah, then it's just probably weird.

And it's not to shame anybody that does that at all. That's fine for your practice, it just might not be a good fit for that specific team for that specific event. Again, if everyone's drafting and everyone's working at a similar pace, then that's perfect, because you guys are all kind of aligned, like it looks very similar in terms of guest and client perspective. You know, when they're coming up and they're seeing the experience and how it all plays out, it just might not be a good fit if the rest of the team is working at a different pace, again, not trying to shame anybody if that is what you do. But it is something that we consider based on the types of events we are typically subcontracting for.

Yeah, what I think too, yeah, someone who's gonna like engage with guests, also that vibe. It's gonna be like a good time, like giggling with us, because there's nothing I hate more than someone who's gonna bring down the vibe and just be like, stressed you know, it's events, they're supposed to be fun. And so that's also something, I personally look for, and I think that's, again, people like know that that's the vibe we are bringing to the occasion.

100%.

To that point is also, this isn't like, I'm not hiring you if your style isn't this, but I like to see consistency in style. If it is, if we're all working together.

Like we're all flourishing or we're all doing modern.

Just because I get, yeah, like, or your style is fairly similar to mine. Again, like, we're all using more of like a modern style. It's about a similar size. So that way again, the, at myself, at myself, we're all writing tiny everybody. Just kidding.

Wait, you did not just say similar size. You did not say similar-

You didn't even, okay, wait, hold on, sorry. The past couple of events I've had, I've literally had people tell me that my writing is not large enough and I cannot express, yes, I cannot express how floored I cannot express, I did a C that was like over two inches on a whiskey glass and they were like, they literally came back, asked the other artist, like at the end of the event, they were like.

I would like another glass. I see you have an extra glass. Can you do the C big? I was like, sir, I did it so big, so large. And so, sorry, I just had to laugh that you said this around the same size because I feel like my writing is gigantic compared to you and.

Yeah, then mine is over here like teensy tiny small. Like I'm using college ruled paper.

You're trying to make yours bigger. I'm trying so hard to make it smaller.

And meanwhile, I'm over here trying to make it bigger. So there's that. does potentially have an impact. So it is something that even we are working on. Again, trying to have style, don't, Alex's style is different than mine, but they're close enough in terms of modern style. Like we'll definitely check in with each other. Like, hey, how are you flourishing that today? Like, what does your Y look like today?

Are you doing all lowercase? Are you doing capitals? Like, what's the vibe? Are we doing it diagonal? Are we doing it straight across? Are we doing it like, what are we doing? So again, just that consistency because I do think some clients are definitely more particular about that kind of stuff. But I think it just looks nice to have a similar presentation of the final product,

Yeah, I think those are like really important factors. I frequently subcontract, I frequently get subcontracted. And I think it's awesome that we're all like sharing these jobs and that we're all getting these really huge jobs. It's literally so awesome. Also, I just wanted to add like one more point that I think it's like, I… As much as I don't necessarily require it for more than just my ego, I do always love a little shout out when I have subcontracted people and/or when I've just referred things, especially when I refer things. I just referred something to someone and they did not even need to tag me at all and they literally tagged me and I was like, you're so cute. You didn't even have to share that I gave that to you. But I just think it's always nice to share the love.

And I feel like that's really nice to not like claim anything as your own all the time because we're all here because of each other. I've worked for you, I'm like, this event I did for Cat you know, and then like vice versa.

Yeah. That moves us into the next thing we're going to talk about, which again, that was just like our perspective of things that we really like seeing in subcontractors. I think switching now to gray areas when you're subcontracting things that you definitely want to make sure you have like clear communication on with your contractor. And I think one of those things is posting and/or like social media in general. One – checking in with the contractor to make sure that there isn't any boundaries from the client around social media, especially as you know, a lot of people are doing retail, like you are not supposed to tag any of the big brands, a lot of times.

You can't share it because it's their intellectual property, So I think step one is checking to make sure with the contractor that the client doesn't have any restrictions and/or boundaries around posting. And then two, checking in with the contractor, like what they're comfortable with.

So like Alex just mentioned, like for the most part, like she doesn't mind sharing, as long as there's credit for whether it was the referral or like whatever else.

Okay, I did say mostly it's an ego thing. I just love it. Thank you so much. But no, I was also saying I just really get good energy.

No, I agree.

Yeah. Okay.

I agree. I was just touching back on your example, but yeah. So I would say like always checking in with them about any like clarifications needed are surrounding even like getting content. Cause again, some clients might be like, I don't like don't even take your phone out. Like there's no reason that like we should be taking a photo video of anything So check with the client, check with the contractor just to make sure everybody's on the same page about social media and content.

Yeah, I think it's always just like nice to check in. I think transparency is key, over communication is key. Obviously like if you have a good relationship or like some sort of like unspoken situation, like that's always awesome. I know, like you have so many reels or like posts that you haven't posted because they are like technically my events, but like I haven't posted about them.

And then I'm just like, you can post them, it's fine. But out of respect, you're just like holding them. But yeah, I think it gets tricky because you're like, I feel like you don't want to claim the client as your own, but at the same time, it's like just put it in the caption, like say that you did it with someone else, whatever.

Yeah. Agreed.

Do you think, well, I guess it's also a gray area in terms of like claiming them as your client. Again, the client might not allow you to use logos, sub marks, any of that, in your own marketing. So I think definitely one checking to make sure if that's the case to again, it's a little bit of a gray area. Like, yes, you worked the event, but I don't know. There's a… There's a gray area around claiming them as your client. I don't know. Just a gray area that we encourage you to chat with the person contracting you.

Yeah, I think it gets tricky with subcontracting, because it's like you're not trying to like poach anybody's client by like being there. But I've definitely have met people who have... I don't know if I've... I've definitely met people who do have the audacity.

To try.

At an event to straight up be like, well, I'm also a calligrapher or like something like that. So that's always kind of interesting. Not anyone I've subcontracted, but like I've, I've seen that.

Yeah, I think the respect should go both ways, like from the contractor to the person they're subcontracting and vice versa. Setting up that communication, whether that is something that you are able to promote your own business, or if that is a contact that'll go through, you know, the contractor first, and then they'll share back to you. 

I think what we're trying to say here is there should not be a time where you're actively trying to poach somebody's clients. It's one thing if they have a good experience with you. They're independent actors. They can make the choice if they want to reach out to you as opposed to the other person. But I think we're saying there should not be like some side conversation or like hush, hush conversation of like, well, I don't know what they charge, but this is what I charge or like making comments like that, that kind of insinuate like you can set up a different arrangement that is more beneficial to them if they go with you. Cause one, we never love undercutting other people, especially someone that has hired you, but that doesn't give you a great reputation. So it's just, it's really not benefiting anyone other than the client in that capacity. And that's not the way you want to build your business.

Yeah, yeah. I was also thinking like there's been, I feel like a couple situations. So like, there's one situation, right, where like, it's a team of artists. And it usually makes sense. There's like one main person, right? Like you're all under one business. And that situation, I feel like we're always like, well, we're here under this business. We all have our own separate businesses.

And then it's like, if you want to work with me, here's my like, it's kind of one of those like, we're always like looking at each other like, and I mean, for you and I, it's just like, give the card, I don't care, give your card, or like, whatever. But it's always like a check in. I think that's kind of what you're saying is like, just check in, like, whatever. Because, I mean, it would be confusing to have like multiple businesses at one table. Right.

But I also think like, you know, if you're going in place of someone else, right, this is when there's just one artist. Yeah, that's when it's like good to have those check-ins of like, can I give my business card out? Do you want it to just kind of be whatever it's called, like white labeled where like you have nothing out and you're just really there under the brand? Because those are, that's also a lot of things too, where it's like, don't have your stuff out, especially a lot of luxury brands are like, we don't want you promoting yourself. We don't want you promoting anyone else's business. Like you are there for us.

You're an extension of this luxury brand.

Yeah. So don't give out your cards. Don't give out anything. And so I know like that's been an experience as well that I've had where it's like, yes, I'm hiring you. Sorry, you can't promote yourself. They won't even let me promote me. So yeah. Yeah, it's really tricky. I think a lot of stuff is just case by case. And I think all of these situations can be nuanced. And as long as we're trying to all like do our best and like be kind to each other and like give each other work and help each other out and you know, all of that stuff like.

Yeah. And I think advocating for yourself, regardless of which side you're on, whether you're the contractor or subcontractor, being open to discussion. There is obviously someone hiring and someone being hired, but you're still peers. There shouldn't be this crazy power dynamic of like one being perceived to be more important than the other you're still two businesses, you're still two colleagues that work in the same field. Have mutual respect for each other, you know, in your communication as you're setting those expectations, like is really what we're saying is get on the same page about it. Don't make assumptions either way on someone's intent or reason as to why, feel free to ask questions as part of that advocacy for yourself so that way you can make the best decision possible for yourself and your business and your family and any other things that you take to factor into your decision making.

Yeah, like if you're like old Alex and you're like, I don't want to work under anybody else's name, then and someone asks you to subcontract then like don't do that. Because like that's your boundary. But if you're, you know, like new Alex and you're like, yeah, I cool. Like I didn't have to retain this client. I didn't have to communicate. I got to just not. I mean, obviously there's communicating. We're literally talking about communicating. But like, stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, bring the vibe.

You're just bringing the vibe and the art. That's cool. So I think, yeah, it just all goes back to like what at the end of the day do you like works for you works for your business. And that's it.

And is going to best serve the clients.

Look at you. You're so profesh. Oh my gosh.

Well, I feel like that's an important thing though, because people get into this like one artist versus the other. it's like, the expectation of the boundary might be because that's what best serves the client. It might not be about you. It might not be something so personal, but it is what is best to serve the clients. I think keeping that top of mind in discussions is important.

I mean, yeah, I feel like that was like half our conversation day was like, my client needed this and that was what was best for the client. So I think that's 100% valid. And that's really ultimately what's going to make it the best guest experience when everybody's on the same page.

Absolutely. All right. That is enough of that. Thank you all for listening and being here. Alex, tell them where they can find us.

You can find us on Alex at Signs Our Lives on Instagram, or you can find us on Keeping Up with the Calligs on Instagram. Make sure you're subscribed. Make sure you rate us five stars.

Send us a DM with any feedback, any suggestions for episodes that you want to hear coming up. If you want to find me, I'm at Cat Lauren Calligraphy. That is Cat with a C. And yeah, thanks for keeping up everybody.

Bye!